Empty "Create Document" menu
 

Hi,

After 3 years of discussion it looks like Ubuntu is still going to ship with empty "Create Document" menu in Nautilus. This menu should be populated which choices "Create text file", "Create OpenOffice Writer document" and so on.


Bug #23332 was marked as invalid.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/23332

and here is discussion about the matter http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2008-June/msg00123.html


This is one of these things were discussion led to nowhere. The last word was "no we are not going to do anything for this because there could be possible abuse by software packagers and such". This is a bit unflattering for the end users. I'd rather have this very handy usability feature on the risk of hypothetical abuse. I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software vendors try to clutter it up.


This is a very visible bug (feature) to all users coming from other operating systems/distributions. Could we at least remove "Create Document" menu if it's going to be unsupported?
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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Mikko Ohtamaa <mikko@redinnovation.com> wrote:
>I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software
> vendors try to clutter it up.

Yeah, if you have root privelidges to remove said templates from a
global directory. This is fine if you're working on a single user
machine and you're the admin. Really really bad if you're on any
multiuser machine, be it in a corporate environment or just the kid of
an Ubuntu dad who really likes his 40 global templates.

>
> This is a very visible bug (feature) to all users coming from other
> operating systems/distributions. Could we at least remove "Create Document"
> menu if it's going to be unsupported?
>

It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates
and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in
/etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them.

Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh?

-A. Walton

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

Hi

Basically I see the "Create Document" menu equivalent (in
abuse-ability sense) to the "Main Menu" (the one in top left for
launching all the applications). Any package or user that can add item
there can abuse it.

So if ugly distro or super-user clutter either of the menus then
super-user can clean it up using command line (kinda works now). If
the user lacks super-user capability then there is a difference: the
"Main Menu" has unprivileged mechanism (the "Main Menu" editor, in
Preferences/Main Menu) for disabling items while "Create Document"
does not.

2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
> It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates
> and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in
> /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them.

Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she
does not know that information!

Perhaps if we add item "Add or Remove Templates..." to the bottom of
the list which would open Nautilus with the directory. Or perhaps it
could open editor similar to the "Main Menu" editor. This may also
solve the problem when new application is installed and a new template
is created in /etc/skel/Templates but existing users do not see the
template.

> Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh?

[flame on]
That's the GNOME philosophy - a feature was made not configurable to
make it "just simple", if user does not like it then bad luck.
[flame off]

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

A. Walton [2008-10-29 11:10 -0400]:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Mikko Ohtamaa <mikko@redinnovation.com> wrote:
> >I can clean up my menu if my evil Linux software
> > vendors try to clutter it up.
>
> Yeah, if you have root privelidges to remove said templates from a
> global directory. This is fine if you're working on a single user
> machine and you're the admin. Really really bad if you're on any
> multiuser machine, be it in a corporate environment or just the kid of
> an Ubuntu dad who really likes his 40 global templates.

There is no reason why GNOME shouldn't be able to override those in
your user configuration.

I don't really buy the original argument. Right now, it's not really
an useful thing to put into the context menu in the first place. So if
we see that abuse actually starts to happen in Ubuntu packages, then
heck, it's not like it was impossible to fix those packages to throw
them out again.

Martin
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Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org)

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:21 PM, petr bug <petr.bug@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Perhaps if we add item "Add or Remove Templates..." to the bottom of
> the list which would open Nautilus with the directory.

That sounds like a good idea, but perhaps it could then give a list of
templates for programs you have installed? So any program could add
their template to the list and yet it wouldn't clutter up the menu.

Also if that would be implemented, I would rather have the directory
hidden (in ~/.config or something). It has always felt like a really
odd thing in the user directory.

Wouter.

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug <petr.bug@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Basically I see the "Create Document" menu equivalent (in
> abuse-ability sense) to the "Main Menu" (the one in top left for
> launching all the applications). Any package or user that can add item
> there can abuse it.
>
> So if ugly distro or super-user clutter either of the menus then
> super-user can clean it up using command line (kinda works now). If
> the user lacks super-user capability then there is a difference: the
> "Main Menu" has unprivileged mechanism (the "Main Menu" editor, in
> Preferences/Main Menu) for disabling items while "Create Document"
> does not.
>
> 2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
>> It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates
>> and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in
>> /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them.
>
> Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she
> does not know that information!

Seems you do though. Funny how we don't give users credit for being
able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities. Perhaps we
should Retitle it "Create Document from ~/Template" to waste even more
screen pixels?

>
> Perhaps if we add item "Add or Remove Templates..." to the bottom of
> the list which would open Nautilus with the directory. Or perhaps it
> could open editor similar to the "Main Menu" editor. This may also
> solve the problem when new application is installed and a new template
> is created in /etc/skel/Templates but existing users do not see the
> template.
>
>> Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh?
>
> [flame on]
> That's the GNOME philosophy - a feature was made not configurable to
> make it "just simple", if user does not like it then bad luck.
> [flame off]

It's perfectly configurable the way it is. Open a folder, drag and
drop. Sure, we could add a dialog with a list of checkboxes, a button
or two to add and remove templates, and have the users go in hit a few
knobs and turn off the links, but that seems like a hilariously
ludicrous workaround for something as easy to manage as a folder of
templates. Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's
harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS,
Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder).

I personally have no problem seeing Ubuntu ship a few default
templates in /etc/skel/. From my GNOME point of view, I think it'd be
a healthy thing to do, and I think distros have the good sense to
manage what they put in there, even though it's not "recommended".
From my Ubuntu point of view, if it makes users more likely to use it,
then by all means put in a few (and maybe one that says "Delete this
file if you don't want this menu entry anymore").

-A. Walton

>
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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug <petr.bug@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
>>> It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates
>>> and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in
>>> /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them.
>>
>> Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she
>> does not know that information!
>
> Seems you do though.

I (as a C programmer) did not know that such directory exist
yesterday. Ordinary users are even less likely to know since they
generally do not have computer science degree. I (as a accountant who
does nothing with computers) still do not know.

> Funny how we don't give users credit for being
> able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities.

How can user know where the directory is or where to find out where it
is described?

It is not mentioned in standards.freedesktop.org. Search for "gnome
templates" finds something but it is not a howto. How can user know
that "gnome templates" are the right keywords? The do not know what
"gnome" is or that the feature is really "template". End even then:
why should people search webs for something that they already have
before their eyes?

>>> Choice of menu items vs. Compulsory menu options. Hmm, tough choice eh?
>>
>> [flame on]
>> That's the GNOME philosophy - a feature was made not configurable to
>> make it "just simple", if user does not like it then bad luck.
>> [flame off]
>
> It's perfectly configurable the way it is. Open a folder, drag and
> drop.

Again, open which folder?

Of course, if user knows what directory it is then it is easy. Dialog
with check boxes will be even easier.

> Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's
> harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS,
> Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder).

I do not see why we can not have both dialogs. They do not compete.

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:26 PM, petr bug <petr.bug@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
>> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:21 PM, petr bug <petr.bug@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 2008/10/29 A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org>:
>>>> It's perfectly supported as designed. Put some template in ~/Templates
>>>> and enjoy. If you want to push it to new users, put it in
>>>> /etc/skel/Templates and every new user gets them.
>>>
>>> Where can user put the templates? To ~/Templates dir? No way, he/she
>>> does not know that information!
>>
>> Seems you do though.
>
> I (as a C programmer) did not know that such directory exist
> yesterday. Ordinary users are even less likely to know since they
> generally do not have computer science degree. I (as a accountant who
> does nothing with computers) still do not know.
>

You do not need to be a C programmer nor do you need a computer
science degree to open your home folder and see a folder named
"Templates", wonderfully translated into the language you read. And
you do know, as you just told me what directory it was yourself an
email ago.

>> Funny how we don't give users credit for being
>> able to find out even the most trivial of trivialities.
>
> How can user know where the directory is or where to find out where it
> is described?

So here's the problem indicated here: it's not discoverable enough of
a feature. So why don't we talk about why it's not discoverable, and
try to solve that problem? We can add some documentation to point
people here in Help, for example. This is a very good reason to file a
bug, like this one I just filed for you:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558435
Feel free to add your notes or suggestions to how we can make this
more discoverable.

>
> Of course, if user knows what directory it is then it is easy. Dialog
> with check boxes will be even easier.
>
>> Save the dialog and button twiddling for something that's
>> harder to manage, like which volumes appear on your desktop (as GVFS,
>> Hal aren't as easy to manage as a folder).
>
> I do not see why we can not have both dialogs. They do not compete.

They compete for time, from people like me and you, time in bugs, time
in I/O, and on. They distract us from real issues, like one I pointed
out. We have better ways to spend our time working on Nautilus. It's a
very nasty solution to a very trivial problem, which is the entire
point I was making.

-A. Walton

>
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>

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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

You do not need to be a C programmer nor *do you need a computer

science degree to open your home folder and see a folder named

"Templates", wonderfully translated into the language you read. And

you do know, as you just told me what directory it was yourself an

email ago.
You mostly do need some kind of background information. If we look things from the bigger perspective this is not like "fonts" - there are templates used in web programming, macro recorders and so on and so on.... It does not help that the templates folder is empty - if there were sample items the clue would be obvious. My/your grandmother might not even know what a template means, in computer sense. Also, Templates as a home folder level item is giving a bit too much visibility for such a minor feature.



So here's the problem indicated here: it's not discoverable enough of


a feature. So why don't we talk about why it's not discoverable, and

try to solve that problem? We can add some documentation to point

people here in Help, for example. This is a very good reason to file a

bug, like this one I just filed for you:

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558435
This is very good idea. The last item of the Create Document menu could be "Customize document templates".


Users are unlikely to customize their templates even if they are given
an option to do so - there are some desktop tweakers, but they rarely
present the large user population. The users, like I, are also dumb lazy and giving them easy life makes them happy. I still see it an attractive option to have sane defaults in this folder - maybe we could create few items when we create an Ubuntu desktop user as an example:


- OpenOffice doc, calc, presentation

- Text document

The behavior having multiple entries for the same file type like "OpenOffice document", "ABIWord document" is bad. This menu should be tied to the file type and then use the default application for this file type. Preferably this could be configured from "Preferred applications." E.g. Windows has an dialog to priorize applications targeting the same file types.


*

They compete for time, from people like me and you, time in bugs, time

in I/O, and on. They distract us from real issues, like one I pointed

out. We have better ways to spend our time working on Nautilus. It's a

very nasty solution to a very trivial problem, which is the entire

point I was making.
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Empty "Create Document" menu
 

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:38 PM, A. Walton <awalton@gnome.org> wrote:
> I personally have no problem seeing Ubuntu ship a few default
> templates in /etc/skel/. From my GNOME point of view, I think it'd be
> a healthy thing to do, and I think distros have the good sense to
> manage what they put in there, even though it's not "recommended".

This is the problem right here. I think it's pretty uncontestable, for
the reasons that Michael Meeks states on the Gnome mailing list
thread, that having some templates in ~/Templates by default would
improve enormously the user experience. So, it's a valid bug. But,
it's been closed by the Ubuntu developer because we have one Gnome
developer, not even the nautilus maintainers, with a loud voice on a
thread on the Gnome mailing list saying it's a bad idea because he
doesn't trust distributors to do a good job to maintain a healthy list
of templates.

It seems plain to me having read the thread that the correct approach
here is for distros to take responsibility for this and ship some
templates in ~/Templates by default (whether using /etc/skel or other
technical means). It's only distros who have control over whether that
list of templates will get "cluttered" or not, so it's distros who can
keep it clean.

I think closing the bug was the wrong decision and I really hope that
it can be reconsidered as a potential feature for Ubuntu 9.04.

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Matthew East
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