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Old 10-06-2008, 12:01 PM
Kenneth Wimer
 
Default removing themes

HI all,

I am going through the gnome-themes package looking into what we need and what
we don't need. As far as I can tell the only theme we need from this is the
high-contrast-* themes. Crux, Glider and Co could easily go into another
theme package which is installable by the user if so wished.

What do you think?

Ken

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Old 10-09-2008, 08:00 PM
Martin Pitt
 
Default removing themes

Hi Ken, hey Mark,

Kenneth Wimer [2008-10-06 14:01 +0200]:
> I am going through the gnome-themes package looking into what we need and what
> we don't need. As far as I can tell the only theme we need from this is the
> high-contrast-* themes. Crux, Glider and Co could easily go into another
> theme package which is installable by the user if so wished.

What is the rationale of this? They are part of GNOME upstream, so
both upstream and users would get pretty angry about it (and upstream
already explicitly expressed that). Upstream did remove some crufty
themes a while ago, and said that they will not remove any of the
current ones anytime soon. We have 8 themes by default, that's not too
much for the dialog either IMHO.

Doing that split would introduce quite expensive packaging changes, a
permanent delta from Debian, we have to make sure that upgrades won't
break (and thus have to install and support the other themes anyway
for upgrades), and won't even safe a significant amount of CD space.

In summary, it would cause a lot of work for no apparent advantage and
just cause trouble. So why bother?

Thanks for any clarification!

Martin

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Old 10-09-2008, 08:38 PM
Mark Shuttleworth
 
Default removing themes

Martin Pitt wrote:

Hi Ken, hey Mark,

Kenneth Wimer [2008-10-06 14:01 +0200]:


I am going through the gnome-themes package looking into what we need and what
we don't need. As far as I can tell the only theme we need from this is the
high-contrast-* themes. Crux, Glider and Co could easily go into another
theme package which is installable by the user if so wished.



What is the rationale of this? They are part of GNOME upstream, so
both upstream and users would get pretty angry about it (and upstream
already explicitly expressed that). Upstream did remove some crufty
themes a while ago, and said that they will not remove any of the
current ones anytime soon. We have 8 themes by default, that's not too
much for the dialog either IMHO.


What's the size-on-CD saving of removing the themes we don't want?




Doing that split would introduce quite expensive packaging changes, a
permanent delta from Debian,

Errr.... don't we package Gnome ahead of Debian?



Mark


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Old 10-09-2008, 08:54 PM
Martin Pitt
 
Default removing themes

Mark Shuttleworth [2008-10-09 21:38 +0100]:
> What's the size-on-CD saving of removing the themes we don't want?

The entire package is 270 kB. I guess we want to keep some of them
(Clearlooks, Inverted for a11y), so we would talk about some 150 kB.

> > Doing that split would introduce quite expensive packaging changes, a
> > permanent delta from Debian,
> Errr.... don't we package Gnome ahead of Debian?

We do, Debian is currently at the hardy version. That's actually the
least of my concerns, too (building a new binary package is still
relatively cheap), I'm more worried about the bad press we'd get from
upstream and whoever else.

Martin

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Old 10-09-2008, 09:33 PM
Kenneth Wimer
 
Default removing themes

On Thursday 09 October 2008 22:54:39 Martin Pitt wrote:
> Mark Shuttleworth [2008-10-09 21:38 +0100]:
> > What's the size-on-CD saving of removing the themes we don't want?
>
> The entire package is 270 kB. I guess we want to keep some of them
> (Clearlooks, Inverted for a11y), so we would talk about some 150 kB.

The theme engines have larger file sizes than the xml files to define a given
theme, true. This should not be the argument for removing them. (Gosh, I wish
it was that easy )

> > > Doing that split would introduce quite expensive packaging changes, a
> > > permanent delta from Debian,
> >
> > Errr.... don't we package Gnome ahead of Debian?
>
> We do, Debian is currently at the hardy version. That's actually the
> least of my concerns, too (building a new binary package is still
> relatively cheap), I'm more worried about the bad press we'd get from
> upstream and whoever else.

I think that if we replaced the aging themes we could, in their place, include
a couple of interesting new ones. I think users would get much more out of
being able to select a modern sexy theme. In this way we offer our default
theme, accessability themes and a few beautiful, sexy themes.

I realize that the upstream issue is important but I wonder what gnome is
thinking when they offer "glider" or "crux" as a modern theme for their
users. I get the feeling that the gnome-themes package was not inteded to be
installed by any dist by default...if one needs an accessibility theme you
install this...and/or if you are a hard-core old-timer you'll want crux as
well.

I am for adding a theme engine (if needed) and a couple of new themes. It
would be very easy to find a few alternatives to the older ones we offer now
(even if we cannot install another engine). It would defintely more than make
up for the effort in user's eyes.

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Old 10-09-2008, 10:05 PM
Sebastien Bacher
 
Default removing themes

Le jeudi 09 octobre 2008 à 22:54 +0200, Martin Pitt a écrit :
> We do, Debian is currently at the hardy version. That's actually the
> least of my concerns, too (building a new binary package is still
> relatively cheap), I'm more worried about the bad press we'd get from
> upstream and whoever else.

Hey,

the changes over debian are not too much of an issue, but we do try to
sync once every cycle their changes to lower the delta and benefit of
what they did, and extra changes means some extra work for us there.
that doesn't stop us to make changes we want to do but that's just
something we try to consider before doing packaging changes
that said I agree that having a rational for the change to point to
upstream and users who will ask why we dropped those GNOME themes would
be useful. the current list of themes is not really crowded and adding
some nice ones could be a good move but just dropping those to not list
other choices doesn't seem something which will really benefit users

Sebastien Bacher


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Old 10-09-2008, 10:30 PM
Thomas Thurman
 
Default removing themes

Ysgrifennodd Martin Pitt:
> What is the rationale of this? They are part of GNOME upstream, so
> both upstream and users would get pretty angry about it (and upstream
> already explicitly expressed that).

When did we say that? (Not saying we didn't, just that I might have
lost track.)

T

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Old 10-10-2008, 02:35 AM
Mark Shuttleworth
 
Default removing themes

Thomas Thurman wrote:

Ysgrifennodd Martin Pitt:


What is the rationale of this? They are part of GNOME upstream, so
both upstream and users would get pretty angry about it (and upstream
already explicitly expressed that).



When did we say that? (Not saying we didn't, just that I might have
lost track.)


I'm not suggesting we drop the themes from the repository, just tighten
up the set of themes that are on disk. Upgrading users would retain all
the current themes and gain new ones. New users could get the old ones
through apt-get or gnome-app-install.



Mark



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Old 10-10-2008, 11:55 AM
Jeff
 
Default removing themes

I'd like to voice my user opinion on the matter.



I use mist, even though it is fugly compared to Clearlooks, because it is BLAZINGLY fast. The two are not even in the same "fruit family" comparing them, especially if you are running at 1920x1200 and dealing with webpages. For example, have, say, 30-50 tabs open in epiphany-gecko (or Firefox, for that matter, but Ephy is faster for switching tabs already, since you can use the mouse wheel scroll). With mist, tab switches are instantaneous, with Clearlooks, it can take a second or so.



Same goes for painting windows (ex: switching workspaces with metacity).



Or scrolling webpages (especially gmail).



Mist makes a lot of sense on those not-quadcore-with-a-512mb-intel-video-card scenarios, perhaps the other gnome themes have their special usefulness in that regard too.


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Old 10-10-2008, 12:16 PM
"Brett Alton"
 
Default removing themes

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 7:55 AM, Jeff <web.kiddo@free.fr> wrote:
> I'd like to voice my user opinion on the matter.
>
> I use mist, even though it is fugly compared to Clearlooks, because it is
> BLAZINGLY fast. The two are not even in the same "fruit family" comparing
> them, especially if you are running at 1920x1200 and dealing with webpages.
> For example, have, say, 30-50 tabs open in epiphany-gecko (or Firefox, for
> that matter, but Ephy is faster for switching tabs already, since you can
> use the mouse wheel scroll). With mist, tab switches are instantaneous, with
> Clearlooks, it can take a second or so.
>
> Same goes for painting windows (ex: switching workspaces with metacity).
>
> Or scrolling webpages (especially gmail).
>
> Mist makes a lot of sense on those
> not-quadcore-with-a-512mb-intel-video-card scenarios, perhaps the other
> gnome themes have their special usefulness in that regard too.
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>
>

I think the point of their argument is that you can install that from
apt if you need it, but it shouldn't be installed by default for
aesthetics and size reasons.

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