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Old 02-24-2009, 07:01 AM
Martin Pitt
 
Default gnome-control-center

Matthew East [2009-02-23 13:29 +0000]:
> I wonder if it would be appropriate for inclusion of
> gnome-control-center to be considered again for Jaunty.

I believe it is just changing a gconf key, to flip between menu mode
and control center mode.

Personally I have always liked the menu mode, since it makes it both
much more obvious, and also much faster, to reach a particular
setting. I agree, though, that the preferences menu is too large. It
would be nice if there were subgroups and some more cleverness:

* mouse, keyboard layout, keyboard shortcuts, and accessibility
should be in an "input devices" submenu
* "palm os device" should rather be in the applications menu IMHO
* screen resolution, appearance, screen saver, and perhaps some more
are also closely related and could go into a submenu

Martin

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Old 02-24-2009, 07:26 AM
Matthew East
 
Default gnome-control-center

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> I agree, though, that the preferences menu is too large. It
> would be nice if there were subgroups and some more cleverness:

For me, the problem is not only that the preferences menu is so long
and isn't broken down into categories as in the control-center, but
also my feeling that a regular user will simply not comprehend the
distinction drawn between "administration" and "preferences". That's
what makes a configuration setting so hard to find, because it's
unclear which menu it will be in. Even though I've used and
contributed to Ubuntu for years, I still find myself thinking twice
about which menu I need to look in. I guess that the distinction is
intended to be that apps in "administration" change system wide
settings, and those in "preferences" change user-only settings, but
that distinction is much too complex for most users, I think.

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Old 02-24-2009, 07:42 AM
Sebastien Bacher
 
Default gnome-control-center

Le vendredi 29 août 2008 à 08:38 +0100, Matthew East a écrit :
> I recall that a couple of releases back gnome-control-center was
> considered for inclusion by default in Ubuntu. Has it been
> reconsidered for Intrepid?

Hi,

Not really but it's late in this cycle for a such change and the
gnome-control-center code has not changed much in recent GNOME cycles
since the previous discussion and would benefit some work.
One option could be to add the gnome-control-center menu item to the
system menu though which would let the start this one or to keep using
the menus the way it's working now

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher



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Old 02-24-2009, 09:04 AM
Alexander Sack
 
Default gnome-control-center

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:01:48AM +0100, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Matthew East [2009-02-23 13:29 +0000]:
> > I wonder if it would be appropriate for inclusion of
> > gnome-control-center to be considered again for Jaunty.
>
> I believe it is just changing a gconf key, to flip between menu mode
> and control center mode.
>
> Personally I have always liked the menu mode, since it makes it both
> much more obvious, and also much faster, to reach a particular
> setting. I agree, though, that the preferences menu is too large. It
> would be nice if there were subgroups and some more cleverness:
>
> * mouse, keyboard layout, keyboard shortcuts, and accessibility
> should be in an "input devices" submenu
> * "palm os device" should rather be in the applications menu IMHO
> * screen resolution, appearance, screen saver, and perhaps some more
> are also closely related and could go into a submenu

The problem with subgroups in menu is that it deepens the menu
hierarchy, which can be cumbersome to use - especially for
not-so-advanced users.

- Alexander


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Old 02-24-2009, 10:18 AM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default gnome-control-center

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Matthew East wrote on 23/02/09 13:29:
>
> I wonder if it would be appropriate for inclusion of
> gnome-control-center to be considered again for Jaunty.
>
> I still think that the points made in my email below remain valid in
> Jaunty - for me the absence of a structured preferences menu is the
> main problem that stands out at me from Ubuntu's otherwise awesome
> desktop. There wasn't really a very comprehensive discussion of the
> issues when I raised this back in August 2008.
>...

The problem with gnome-control-center is exactly the same now as it has
been for the past three years: it's faster to use if you don't know what
you're looking for, but slower if you do know -- because you have to
wait for, and close, two windows instead of one. It also takes up far
too much screen space, making it netbook-incompatible.

Meanwhile the Preferences and Administration menus have been getting
slightly worse over time, partly because of more stuff being added to
them (such as System Cleaner/Janitor and "Create a USB startup disk"),
and partly because PolicyKit is correctly beginning to allow
administrative and non-administrative changes in the same interface
(such as user account settings, and system-wide keyboard layout and
network proxy).

I have begun designing an interface that would fix the current problems
with gnome-control-center by embedding settings panels into the shell
window, as KDE and Mac OS X do, and as Windows Vista and Windows 7 are
moving towards. The design is still in the very early stages, though.
<http://live.gnome.org/SystemSettings>

Independently, as Celeste mentioned in this thread, designers at Sun
have been doing user testing on categorization of settings panels. They
visited Celeste and myself at UDS in December to discuss their research,
and they plan to make it public, but have not done so yet.

Cheers
- --
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:30 AM
Lars Wirzenius
 
Default gnome-control-center

ti, 2009-02-24 kello 11:18 +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas kirjoitti:
> Meanwhile the Preferences and Administration menus have been getting
> slightly worse over time, partly because of more stuff being added to
> them (such as System Cleaner/Janitor and "Create a USB startup disk"),

I'll mention that I did not put Computer Janitor into that menu from my
own choice, but because people strongly objected to Applications/System.



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Old 02-24-2009, 10:51 AM
Alexander Sack
 
Default gnome-control-center

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:18:03AM +0000, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Matthew East wrote on 23/02/09 13:29:
> >
> > I wonder if it would be appropriate for inclusion of
> > gnome-control-center to be considered again for Jaunty.
> >
> > I still think that the points made in my email below remain valid in
> > Jaunty - for me the absence of a structured preferences menu is the
> > main problem that stands out at me from Ubuntu's otherwise awesome
> > desktop. There wasn't really a very comprehensive discussion of the
> > issues when I raised this back in August 2008.
> >...
>
> The problem with gnome-control-center is exactly the same now as it has
> been for the past three years: it's faster to use if you don't know what
> you're looking for, but slower if you do know -- because you have to
> wait for, and close, two windows instead of one. It also takes up far
> too much screen space, making it netbook-incompatible.

I think the netbook point is a valid one in general, but should
be relatively easy to fix.

The other point i don't really agree. Preferences/Administration is
something you don't do as part of your daily job. So top priority
should be that you (and more importantly: new users) can find what you
want and get that done easily. The time it takes to open/close dialogs
should come second for now.

- Alexander


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Old 09-28-2012, 02:18 AM
Jeremy Bicha
 
Default gnome-control-center

Hi,

We discussed at UDS last time splitting off Ubuntu's customizations of
gnome-control-center into a separate ubuntu-control-center. Are we
going to do that or is it possible to drop quite a few of the Ubuntu
patches and allow for a pretty pure experience without a split?

Problems with the Ubuntu patches
============================
- Ubuntu has 46 patches for gnome-control-center 3.4 in Quantal;
Debian Wheezy has 6.

- An example of the most extreme patching is the Appearance/Background panel.
http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-appearance.png

And this is what GNOME is doing now:
http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.6/figures/users-system-settings-background.png
How are we supposed to merge those two designs and are we dependent on
getting Canonical to redesign this panel now that GNOME has redesigned
theirs? It would make the work a lot easier if the Unity-specific
stuff were moved to a separate panel.

- A second example is the pointless extra icons next to Personal,
Hardware, and System which was done wrong so it's broken if you use
Adwaita or worse, any of the accessibility themes, or almost every
theme really: http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-adwaita.png

- While the specification the Canonical designers created last year to
redesign System Settings was nice, design work for GNOME stuff really
needs to be done in GNOME. Otherwise, it becomes a continual headache
to maintain patches that further diverge from GNOME each cycle. And of
course the Ubuntu GNOME Remix really wants to ship the latest GNOME
without all this heavy patching.

Related questions
==============
Will Ubuntu be taking the GNOME language and printers panels now?

Jeremy

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Old 09-28-2012, 08:02 AM
Sebastien Bacher
 
Default gnome-control-center

Le 28/09/2012 04:18, Jeremy Bicha a écrit :

Hi,

We discussed at UDS last time splitting off Ubuntu's customizations of
gnome-control-center into a separate ubuntu-control-center. Are we
going to do that or is it possible to drop quite a few of the Ubuntu
patches and allow for a pretty pure experience without a split?

Hey Jeremy,

Thanks for bringing the topic, that was on my list of things to discuss
as well.
Bottom line is that I would like very much to reduce our number of
patches there yes.


Problems with the Ubuntu patches
============================
- Ubuntu has 46 patches for gnome-control-center 3.4 in Quantal;
Debian Wheezy has 6.
Yeah, though 10 of those 46 are git*, e.g upstream backports, that's
still quite some patches though.


Upstream took most of our shell grid design changes in 3.6 (bigger
icons, separators, ...) and our new version of the sound panel, I need
to review the list but I think the main offender is our fork of
"background". Do you think that thing like making "update-manager" our
preferred package manager, or changing the default sound theme or adding
an option of "lid close action" are an issue for the GNOME remix? I
would say those are "*buntu" tweaks and fine to have for all flavors.


- An example of the most extreme patching is the Appearance/Background panel.
http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-appearance.png
...
theirs? It would make the work a lot easier if the Unity-specific
stuff were moved to a separate panel.
Yes, seeing the new design I think it would make sense to make a new
panel for unity rather than keeping to patch over the background one.

- A second example is the pointless extra icons next to Personal,
Hardware, and System which was done wrong so it's broken if you use
Adwaita or worse, any of the accessibility themes, or almost every
theme really: http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-adwaita.png
That's going away, the design of the grid screen in 3.6 is close of
ours, I don't intend to keep patches for such minor details (especially
if those create issues like the one you are pointing there)

- While the specification the Canonical designers created last year to
redesign System Settings was nice, design work for GNOME stuff really
needs to be done in GNOME. Otherwise, it becomes a continual headache
to maintain patches that further diverge from GNOME each cycle. And of
course the Ubuntu GNOME Remix really wants to ship the latest GNOME
without all this heavy patching.
Right, designers got a bit better about that and they engaged with
upstream this cycle, some of things they wanted got changed upstream in
GNOME 3.6 in return so hopefully it goes better next cycle.


Related questions
==============
Will Ubuntu be taking the GNOME language and printers panels now?

That's the plan, I sent topic emails about those ;-)

Cheers,
Sebastien Bacher


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Old 10-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Matthew Paul Thomas
 
Default gnome-control-center

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sebastien Bacher wrote on 28/09/12 09:02:
>
> Le 28/09/2012 04:18, Jeremy Bicha a écrit : ...
>> - Ubuntu has 46 patches for gnome-control-center 3.4 in Quantal;
>> Debian Wheezy has 6.
>
> Yeah, though 10 of those 46 are git*, e.g upstream backports,
> that's still quite some patches though.

I've previously offered to review the list of patches. Probably we can
drop some of them.

> ...
>>
>> - An example of the most extreme patching is the
>> Appearance/Background panel.
>> http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-appearance.png
>>
>> And this is what GNOME is doing now:
>> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/3.6/figures/users-system-settings-background.png
>>
Wow, that's completely bonkers. I can't even tell how someone is
supposed to change the background. (Is that a giant button?)

>> How are we supposed to merge those two designs and are we
>> dependent on getting Canonical to redesign this panel now that
>> GNOME has redesigned theirs? It would make the work a lot easier
>> if the Unity-specific stuff were moved to a separate panel.
>
> Yes, seeing the new design I think it would make sense to make a
> new panel for unity rather than keeping to patch over the
> background one.

If users have to care which parts of Ubuntu are "Unity" and which
aren't, we've screwed up.

Given that, and given that the upstream "Background" is crack, I think
the best option is to to keep our existing forked panel.

>> - A second example is the pointless extra icons next to Personal,
>> Hardware, and System which was done wrong so it's broken if you
>> use Adwaita or worse, any of the accessibility themes, or almost
>> every theme really:
>> http://bicha.net/img/system-settings-adwaita.png
>
> That's going away, the design of the grid screen in 3.6 is close of
> ours, I don't intend to keep patches for such minor details
> (especially if those create issues like the one you are pointing
> there)
>
> ...

Those icons are a prime example of a patch that should be dropped. :-)

Cheers
- --
mpt

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