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Old 07-03-2008, 10:51 AM
 
Default BSD licence

Hi Bruno,

On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:

> In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF disclaimer.
>
> http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
> "I disclaim all
> copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
> portions of free software programs from one human language to another
> human language,

This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in
public domain.

>that I have provided to the Foundation or that I will
> provide in the future.
> The programs to which this applies include all
> programs for which the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all
> other freely redistributable software programs."

This is a limitation of the above disclaimer to only the FSF stuff you
contribute your translations to. It means that you are not putting
translations you do for other projects into public domain, just the
ones FSF is in charge of, 'and all other freely redistributable
software programs'. Your disclaimed translations can still be used in
proprietary software.

> As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the guarantee that
> my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's nothing about
> "public domain" in this disclaimer.

'Copyright disclaimer' means that you claim to have no interest in
copyrights over your work (dis-claim == negation of "claim"). That's
exactly what putting into public domain is.

Cheers,
Danilo

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Old 07-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Bruno Patri
 
Default BSD licence

On Thursday 03 July 2008 12:51:33 you wrote:
> Hi Bruno,
>
> On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:
> > In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF
> > disclaimer.
> >
> > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
> > "I disclaim all
> > copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
> > portions of free software programs from one human language to another
> > human language,
>
> This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in
> public domain.

This means that the work ""that i have provided"" to FSF is Not copyrighted
(FSF documentation is very clear about this, public domain means not
copyrighted) It doesn't mean that this work is going to be published in public
domain.


> >that I have provided to the Foundation or that I will
> > provide in the future.
> > The programs to which this applies include all
> > programs for which the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all
> > other freely redistributable software programs."
>
> This is a limitation of the above disclaimer to only the FSF stuff you
> contribute your translations to. It means that you are not putting
> translations you do for other projects into public domain, just the
> ones FSF is in charge of, 'and all other freely redistributable
> software programs'. Your disclaimed translations can still be used in
> proprietary software.

I don't think so. This disclaimer is not a license. The work I've done is only
provided to FSF and then FSF publish it under GPL. In my opinion there's no
way for proprietary software to re-use this work. That's why I think that BSD
license is worse than this kind of disclaimer.


> > As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the guarantee
> > that my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's
> > nothing about "public domain" in this disclaimer.
>
> 'Copyright disclaimer' means that you claim to have no interest in
> copyrights over your work (dis-claim == negation of "claim"). That's
> exactly what putting into public domain is.

Yes but again this disclaimer is not a public license, it's some kind of
private contract between FSF and a contributor.

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Old 07-03-2008, 05:49 PM
"Jennifer Ockwell"
 
Default BSD licence

I'm amazed that people are so bothered by copyright.* Am I alone in not caring about ownership of translations?* I translate to help out, I couldn't care less about copyright on my translations.* At the end of the day I am translating something someone else has written.* I imagined copyright is valid on original works, translating isn't creating something original.


Jen

2008/7/3 Bruno Patri <bruno.patri@gmail.com>:





On Thursday 03 July 2008 12:51:33 you wrote:

> Hi Bruno,

>

> On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:

> > In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF

> > disclaimer.

> >

> > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt

> > "I disclaim all

> > copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of

> > portions of free software programs from one human language to another

> > human language,

>

> This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in

> public domain.



This means that the work ""that i have provided"" to FSF is Not copyrighted

(FSF documentation is very clear about this, public domain means not

copyrighted) It doesn't mean that this work is going to be published in public

domain.





> >that I have provided to the Foundation or that I will

> > provide in the future.

> > *The programs to which this applies include all

> > programs for which the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all

> > other freely redistributable software programs."

>

> This is a limitation of the above disclaimer to only the FSF stuff you

> contribute your translations to. *It means that you are not putting

> translations you do for other projects into public domain, just the

> ones FSF is in charge of, 'and all other freely redistributable

> software programs'. *Your disclaimed translations can still be used in

> proprietary software.



I don't think so. This disclaimer is not a license. The work I've done is only

provided to FSF and then FSF publish it under GPL. In my opinion there's no

way for proprietary software to re-use this work. That's why I think that BSD

license is worse than this kind of disclaimer.





> > As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the guarantee

> > that my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's

> > nothing about "public domain" in this disclaimer.

>

> 'Copyright disclaimer' means that you claim to have no interest in

> copyrights over your work (dis-claim == negation of "claim"). *That's

> exactly what putting into public domain is.



Yes but again this disclaimer is not a public license, it's some kind of

private contract between FSF and a contributor.



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Old 07-03-2008, 06:37 PM
"Caroline Ford"
 
Default BSD licence

The issue is that we only have the freedom to use Ubuntu and free
software as we do because people are anal about licensing.

We make sure everything is compatible so that we can keep our software
free. This means _everything_ not just code, but artwork,
documentation _and_ translations.

Caroline

2008/7/3 Jennifer Ockwell <jenfraggleubuntu@googlemail.com>:
> I'm amazed that people are so bothered by copyright. Am I alone in not
> caring about ownership of translations? I translate to help out, I couldn't
> care less about copyright on my translations. At the end of the day I am
> translating something someone else has written. I imagined copyright is
> valid on original works, translating isn't creating something original.
>
> Jen
>
> 2008/7/3 Bruno Patri <bruno.patri@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 03 July 2008 12:51:33 you wrote:
>> > Hi Bruno,
>> >
>> > On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:
>> > > In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF
>> > > disclaimer.
>> > >
>> > > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
>> > > "I disclaim all
>> > > copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
>> > > portions of free software programs from one human language to another
>> > > human language,
>> >
>> > This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in
>> > public domain.
>>
>> This means that the work ""that i have provided"" to FSF is Not
>> copyrighted
>> (FSF documentation is very clear about this, public domain means not
>> copyrighted) It doesn't mean that this work is going to be published in
>> public
>> domain.
>>
>>
>> > >that I have provided to the Foundation or that I will
>> > > provide in the future.
>> > > The programs to which this applies include all
>> > > programs for which the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all
>> > > other freely redistributable software programs."
>> >
>> > This is a limitation of the above disclaimer to only the FSF stuff you
>> > contribute your translations to. It means that you are not putting
>> > translations you do for other projects into public domain, just the
>> > ones FSF is in charge of, 'and all other freely redistributable
>> > software programs'. Your disclaimed translations can still be used in
>> > proprietary software.
>>
>> I don't think so. This disclaimer is not a license. The work I've done is
>> only
>> provided to FSF and then FSF publish it under GPL. In my opinion there's
>> no
>> way for proprietary software to re-use this work. That's why I think that
>> BSD
>> license is worse than this kind of disclaimer.
>>
>>
>> > > As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the
>> > > guarantee
>> > > that my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's
>> > > nothing about "public domain" in this disclaimer.
>> >
>> > 'Copyright disclaimer' means that you claim to have no interest in
>> > copyrights over your work (dis-claim == negation of "claim"). That's
>> > exactly what putting into public domain is.
>>
>> Yes but again this disclaimer is not a public license, it's some kind of
>> private contract between FSF and a contributor.
>>
>> --
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>> --
>> launchpad-users mailing list
>> launchpad-users@lists.canonical.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
>
>
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
>
>

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Old 07-04-2008, 12:29 AM
Tiago Saboga
 
Default BSD licence

On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 06:49:39PM +0100, Jennifer Ockwell wrote:
> I'm amazed that people are so bothered by copyright. Am I alone in not
> caring about ownership of translations? I translate to help out, I couldn't
> care less about copyright on my translations.

I do not care about copyright for the few translations for free
software I have done, except in a negative sense: I don't want a
wrong copyright notice preventing the use of my translations in free
software projects (be it the one I have written the translation for,
or any other).

> At the end of the day I am
> translating something someone else has written. I imagined copyright is
> valid on original works, translating isn't creating something original.

I send this mail to reply to this point. No, I cannot agree with you.
In a sense, every creation is re-creation, and I am not totally opposed
to the idea of totally dropping copyright. But if there is copyright,
the translations have to have copyright on their own (besides the
original author copyright).

In the context of software, I can see why this is not really clear:
the translations are often very short, and one could argue that even
the original text could not be covered by copyright (as for menu
items: file, open, quit etc.).

But take the other extreme of translation, poetry. It can take years
to make a good translation of a single poem, and it surely is a
creative work. Not the *same* kind of work, sure, but still creative.

Tiago Saboga.

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Old 07-04-2008, 03:19 PM
 
Default BSD licence

Hi Bruno,

Yesterday at 14:13, Bruno Patri wrote:

> On Thursday 03 July 2008 12:51:33 you wrote:
>> Hi Bruno,
>>
>> On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:
>> > In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF
>> > disclaimer.
>> >
>> > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
>> > "I disclaim all
>> > copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
>> > portions of free software programs from one human language to another
>> > human language,
>>
>> This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in
>> public domain.
>
> This means that the work ""that i have provided"" to FSF is Not copyrighted
> (FSF documentation is very clear about this, public domain means not
> copyrighted) It doesn't mean that this work is going to be published in public
> domain.

Ok, public domain == not copyrighted, and it's all already published
on translationproject.org. Nobody needs a license to use public
domain stuff.

This is to protect GNU software from nasty translators (i.e. those
illegally submitting translations [imagine SCO adding some
translations then claiming how somebody else infringed their
copyrigts], then suing FSF over it), not to protect translations from
being misused (and I am not saying protecting them is not a worthy
goal, it's just impractical).

> I don't think so. This disclaimer is not a license. The work I've done is only
> provided to FSF and then FSF publish it under GPL. In my opinion there's no
> way for proprietary software to re-use this work. That's why I think that BSD
> license is worse than this kind of disclaimer.

I respect your opinion, but IANAL and I don't want to argue over
this. You are, indeed, free to choose not to trust me.

>> > As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the guarantee
>> > that my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's
>> > nothing about "public domain" in this disclaimer.
>>
>> 'Copyright disclaimer' means that you claim to have no interest in
>> copyrights over your work (dis-claim == negation of "claim"). That's
>> exactly what putting into public domain is.
>
> Yes but again this disclaimer is not a public license, it's some kind of
> private contract between FSF and a contributor.

I believe that Benno Schulenberg (who is currently running Translation
Project, and who has actually revitalised it, so I trust he knows what
he's talking about) has already responded confirming that you are in
fact putting your PO files into public domain.

I'd like to help convince you we are not planning on doing any harm.
Still, I believe everybody is using a similar licensing (public
domain, or lax licensing like BSD) for translations simply because
that's the only practical way to do it. If anyone ever comes up with
a practical way to do it, I'd be first to jump on that train.


Cheers,
Danilo

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Old 07-04-2008, 03:24 PM
 
Default BSD licence

Hi Tiago,

Today at 2:29, Tiago Saboga wrote:

> I send this mail to reply to this point. No, I cannot agree with you.
> In a sense, every creation is re-creation, and I am not totally opposed
> to the idea of totally dropping copyright. But if there is copyright,
> the translations have to have copyright on their own (besides the
> original author copyright).
>
> In the context of software, I can see why this is not really clear:
> the translations are often very short, and one could argue that even
> the original text could not be covered by copyright (as for menu
> items: file, open, quit etc.).
>
> But take the other extreme of translation, poetry. It can take years
> to make a good translation of a single poem, and it surely is a
> creative work. Not the *same* kind of work, sure, but still creative.

That's exactly how modern copyright laws (they differ from country to
country in small details, but still share a lot) treat translation
work: they are copyrighted by the original author (as a derivative of
their original work), and by a translator (for the translation itself).

What we are covering here in Launchpad Translations is only the
copyright for and license to use work by the translator, done directly
in Launchpad (which includes the work uploaded as 'non-published' work).

Cheers,
Danilo

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Old 07-05-2008, 08:11 AM
Bruno Patri
 
Default BSD licence

On Friday 04 July 2008 17:19:56 Danilo *egan wrote:
> Hi Bruno,

Hi,

> Yesterday at 14:13, Bruno Patri wrote:
> > On Thursday 03 July 2008 12:51:33 you wrote:
> >> Hi Bruno,
> >>
> >> On Tuesday at 18:53, Bruno Patri wrote:
> >> > In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF
> >> > disclaimer.
> >> >
> >> > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
> >> > "I disclaim all
> >> > copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
> >> > portions of free software programs from one human language to another
> >> > human language,
> >>
> >> This ("I disclaim...") means that you are putting your translations in
> >> public domain.
> >
> > This means that the work ""that i have provided"" to FSF is Not
> > copyrighted (FSF documentation is very clear about this, public domain
> > means not copyrighted) It doesn't mean that this work is going to be
> > published in public domain.
>
> Ok, public domain == not copyrighted, and it's all already published
> on translationproject.org. Nobody needs a license to use public
> domain stuff.

That's right, but it seems that all .po files avaible on TP have a copyright
header...

[snip]

> I believe that Benno Schulenberg (who is currently running Translation
> Project, and who has actually revitalised it, so I trust he knows what
> he's talking about) has already responded confirming that you are in
> fact putting your PO files into public domain.



These license issues are quite complex and it was important for me to read
different opinions about that. I didn't know that Benno Schulenberg was in the
TP and it gives much weight to his answer ;-)


> I'd like to help convince you we are not planning on doing any harm.

I'm sure of that ;-)
I just want to be sure to understand Launchpad choices. I have no problem for
my own work, to publish it under BSD licence or even in public domain , but I
need to be able to explain these choices to our team members.

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Old 07-08-2008, 04:58 PM
Jeroen Vermeulen
 
Default BSD licence

luca (ᴉ) innurindi wrote:

> Good, so the upstream translations remain with their own license, but
> what do you think to do in the cases where an user uploads them after the automatic
> import in Launchpad because they weren't complete at that time?

Uploading them again, but as "published." AFAICS that will fix it.


>> [...]
>> So, while we do understand there are some risks, we feel they are very
>> low.
>
> Whty do you think so? IMHO I see nothing that prevents someone from
> profiting from this license. Everyone registered in Launchpad can export the pos and
> distribute them with hia own license.

That's possible, but we also asked ourselves: what's to stop a
proprietary project from basing their translations on (for example)
GPL'ed ones they find on the Internet, and publishing the "free" parts
separately from their proprietary binary-only application? Or to set up
a pointless BSD-licensed project that happens to use the same
translations as their proprietary application? It's more work, we do
see that, but it can be done. A license by itself doesn't stop it.

What limits the problem in practice IMHO is the difference between
programs. There are many strings that come back again and again, but
there are also many strings that don't.

The more a string comes back, the more likely it is to be of use to
another project (which may be proprietary) but also, the less weight
it's likely to carry when you compare translations for copyright
purposes. The most popular strings are all short, and many of them are
dictated by style guides and such. Nobody can "monopolize" those(*),
and anybody will be able to translate those the same way regardless of
license.

(*) With one possible exception: somebody seems to have translated Quit
to Dutch as "Native American." That--how do I say this--would not have
occurred to me. I hope it's just a fuzzy match.


Jeroen


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Old 07-08-2008, 09:27 PM
Benno Schulenberg
 
Default BSD licence

Benno Schulenberg wrote:
> Bruno Patri wrote:
> > http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
> > "I disclaim all copyright interest in my works, which consist of
> > translation of portions of free software programs [...]. The
> > programs to which this applies include all programs for which
> > the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all other freely
> > redistributable software programs."
> >
> > As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the
> > guarantee that my translations can not be used in proprietary
> > software.

You are correct. I have checked with the FSF and the answer that I
gave earlier ("They can be freely copied, by anyone, for any
purpose") is wrong. You keep your copyright, and only disclaim the
interest in your copyright on translations for free programs.

However, if some proprietary program would reuse your translations
(in significant amounts), you yourself would have to take action
against the maker, as you are the owner of the copyright on the
translations. The FSF will not act as the guardian of your work.

(But if your translations have been used, it probably means the
msgids have been used too, and for those the FSF does own the
copyright. So you could point the FSF at the proprietary program,
and if they decide to sue the maker, you could then piggyback on
their case.)

Benno

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