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Old 06-30-2008, 02:10 PM
 
Default BSD licence

Matthias Urlichs <smurf@smurf.noris.de> writes:

> Hi,
>
> luca (ᴉ) innurindi:
>> I think they negatively affect also the Ubuntu translations made in
>> Launchpad, because who spends some time and energy for providing a
>> quality translation if someone can later distribute this one in a
>> closed way and under his own license?
>
> Ummm, in theory, yes, but ...
>
>> The BSD licence can encourage the behaviour of profiting from the
>> others' work without costs.
>
> ... we're talking about translations of some specific, open-source-
> licensed software here. Presumably the translations are of no use if you
> don't already have the software. And the translations, once shipped with
> said software, will inherit its license (being derived works).

So the change of the license doesn't affect the translation of the
Ubuntu operating system but other specific software?

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(emperors ballad, 2008-04-29)

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Old 06-30-2008, 02:16 PM
Matthias Urlichs
 
Default BSD licence

Hi,

luca (ᴉ) innurindi:
> So the change of the license doesn't affect the translation of the
> Ubuntu operating system but other specific software?
>
Why shouldn't it?

--
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Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
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(1) If anything can go wrong, it will.
(2) Nothing is as easy as it looks.
(3) Everything takes longer than you think it will.

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Old 06-30-2008, 02:26 PM
"Og Maciel"
 
Default BSD licence

Hi there,

This is all very confusing (to me) and I would like to make a
suggestion: Would it be possible for someone to write a usecase-like
document describing all the scenarios and consequences for upstream
contributors and Rosetta users?

Cheers,
--
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Old 06-30-2008, 04:10 PM
 
Default BSD licence

Matthias Urlichs <smurf@smurf.noris.de> writes:

> Hi,
>
> luca (ᴉ) innurindi:
>> So the change of the license doesn't affect the translation of the
>> Ubuntu operating system but other specific software?
>>
> Why shouldn't it?

I wanted to understand better what you meant with the term "specific
open source software", so the question affects as it was my first
impression all the translation of the Ubuntu operating system, made in
the past or in the future.

So the BSD license isn't for me the best solution because of the
considerations made in my previous email.

And it still exists the problem with the upstream translations: we
can't use them if they are in GPL because in this way we change
arbitrary their license.

--
luca, (ᴉ) innurindi
Luca Padrin
sistemi software
email/jabber: luca@innurindi.net
impronta gpg: 43D7 D917 B86A C6F2 B4B6 3B68 85FE 2372 3F0B B7DB
fellow della Free Software Foundation Europe

"I' walking down to emperors bay,
A signal, a sound, dolphins at play."
(emperors ballad, 2008-04-29)

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Old 06-30-2008, 08:05 PM
"Peteris Krisjanis"
 
Default BSD licence

2008/6/30 luca (ᴉ) innurindi <luca@innurindi.net>:
> Matthias Urlichs <smurf@smurf.noris.de> writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> luca (ᴉ) innurindi:
>>> So the change of the license doesn't affect the translation of the
>>> Ubuntu operating system but other specific software?
>>>
>> Why shouldn't it?
>
> I wanted to understand better what you meant with the term "specific
> open source software", so the question affects as it was my first
> impression all the translation of the Ubuntu operating system, made in
> the past or in the future.
>
> So the BSD license isn't for me the best solution because of the
> considerations made in my previous email.
>
> And it still exists the problem with the upstream translations: we
> can't use them if they are in GPL because in this way we change
> arbitrary their license.

BSD license is meant just for translation entered within Launchpad
system (as far as I understand) - system give you a string, you
translate it, therefore license it BSD and Launchpad can use this
exact string to compare it with others. In same time, it can be
included in all kind of software, even in that for what you originaly
made your translation for. It is a win-win.

So, in nutshell, imported translations (from projects sources) keep
their license. Translations made within Rosetta via form or upload by
user gets BSD licensed (if user has agreed on that) and can be used as
suggestions for other, not just GPL or LGPL software.

If you don't wanna do that way, disagree and you will have your
previously made translations removed too. So to keep your soul clean,
you can work with upstream project to keep your translations in same
license as software.

I think it is elegant solution. But it needs to be explained. BSD has
been kinda "bogeyman" for many years.

just my two cents,
Peter.
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:36 AM
"Matthew East"
 
Default BSD licence

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Peteris Krisjanis <pecisk@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/6/30 luca (ᴉ) innurindi <luca@innurindi.net>:
>> And it still exists the problem with the upstream translations: we
>> can't use them if they are in GPL because in this way we change
>> arbitrary their license.
>
> BSD license is meant just for translation entered within Launchpad
> system (as far as I understand) - system give you a string, you
> translate it, therefore license it BSD and Launchpad can use this
> exact string to compare it with others. In same time, it can be
> included in all kind of software, even in that for what you originaly
> made your translation for. It is a win-win.
>
> So, in nutshell, imported translations (from projects sources) keep
> their license. Translations made within Rosetta via form or upload by
> user gets BSD licensed (if user has agreed on that) and can be used as
> suggestions for other, not just GPL or LGPL software.

The problem with that is that because of the fact that translations
from upstream are generally not imported immediately in Ubuntu, and
the solution is often for the translation team to upload the upstream
translation in Rosetta. At least I believe that is how the Italian
team does things. That will no longer be possible, if I've understood
correctly.

--
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:30 AM
Milo Casagrande
 
Default BSD licence

--- Mar 1/7/08, Matthew East <mdke@ubuntu.com> ha scritto:
> The problem with that is that because of the fact that
> translations
> from upstream are generally not imported immediately in
> Ubuntu, and
> the solution is often for the translation team to upload
> the upstream
> translation in Rosetta. At least I believe that is how the
> Italian
> team does things.

Yes, we've always done that for speeding up the process.

> That will no longer be possible, if
> I've understood
> correctly.

I don't know... but probably when you upload a translation from upstream and publish it as "coming from upstream", it should maintains its license; if you publish it as a "user upload" then, as Danilo said, you're messing up a little bit the translations and in that case you're publishing under BSD.

At least that's how I have interpreted the all thing...

--
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Old 07-01-2008, 03:29 PM
 
Default BSD licence

Hi Luca,

Yesterday at 12:05, luca innurindi wrote:

> I don't understand, but these strings came from upstream translations?
> If yes, the Ubuntu translators mustn't modify them without asking to the
> upstream translators.

License changes will apply only to work contributed directly through
Launchpad: upstream translations are not treated under the same rules.

>> Our alternative solution would be not to show suggestions from other
>> projects, but that would defeat the purpose of having a large, shared
>> translations database.
>>
>> Also, I wonder how are BSD-licensed translations negatively affecting
>> your upstream project?
>
> I think they negatively affect also the Ubuntu translations made in Launchpad, because who
> spends some time and energy for providing a quality translation if
> someone can later distribute this one in a closed way and
> under his own license? The BSD licence can encourage the behaviour of
> profiting from the others' work without costs.

https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ#Does%20that%20mean%20my%20translation s%20may%20be%20used%20in%20proprietary%20software?

So, while we do understand there are some risks, we feel they are very
low. And we are not alone in that, FSF feels the same way (judging by
their actions):

http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html

As you can see there, many GPL projects which otherwise require strict
copyright assignment in paper, require copyright _disclaimers_ when it
comes to translations ("disclaiming a copyright" means that you are
giving your work out into public domain; this is even "worse" than
what BSD license does: BSD license allows you to still keep at least
some rights, and in some countries, you can even revoke it if your
"moral" rights have been violated).

> So I fear a lack of motivation for contributing to the Ubuntu
> translations if we use this license amd my big question is:
> What's the rationale for using this license? I ask because I haven't seen till now any
> discussion in this ml about this change.

We've had a lot of discussion in the past (some on now extinct
rosetta-users) list, and had more input from Launchpad Beta testers.

I am sorry to hear that you'd lose the motivation to do any
translations for Ubuntu, though.

Rationale is provided on the license question page, and also in the
FAQ:

https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ#Why%20is%20this%20needed?

>> (i.e. GNU applications, including those under GPL with strict
>> copyright assignment in writing, use completely public domain
>> translations)
>
> If they are under GPL, this isn't possible because the translation
> makes a derived work. Could you make some examples of this behaviour?

Yes, look at the above mentioned TranslationProject page. FSF asks
all translators to submit their translations into public domain.

This is also mentioned in the FAQ:

https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ#Why%20not%20public%20domain%20like%20 the%20FSF%27s%20Translation%20Project?

Cheers,
Danilo

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Old 07-01-2008, 04:53 PM
Bruno Patri
 
Default BSD licence

On Tuesday 01 July 2008 17:29:58 Danilo *egan wrote:
[snip]
> > I think they negatively affect also the Ubuntu translations made in
> > Launchpad, because who spends some time and energy for providing a
> > quality translation if someone can later distribute this one in a closed
> > way and
> > under his own license? The BSD licence can encourage the behaviour of
> > profiting from the others' work without costs.
>
>
> https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ#Does%20that%20mean%20m
>y%20translations%20may%20be%20used%20in%20proprie tary%20software?
>
> So, while we do understand there are some risks, we feel they are very
> low. And we are not alone in that, FSF feels the same way (judging by
> their actions):
>
> http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html
>
> As you can see there, many GPL projects which otherwise require strict
> copyright assignment in paper, require copyright _disclaimers_ when it
> comes to translations ("disclaiming a copyright" means that you are
> giving your work out into public domain; this is even "worse" than
> what BSD license does: BSD license allows you to still keep at least
> some rights, and in some countries, you can even revoke it if your
> "moral" rights have been violated).

In my opinion, it's just the opposite, BSD is worse than the FSF disclaimer.

http://translationproject.org/disclaim.txt
"I disclaim all
copyright interest in my works, which consist of translation of
portions of free software programs from one human language to another
human language, that I have provided to the Foundation or that I will
provide in the future. The programs to which this applies include all
programs for which the Foundation is the copyright holder, and all
other freely redistributable software programs."

As far as I can understand it, the last sentence gives me the guarantee that
my translations can not be used in proprietary software. There's nothing about
"public domain" in this disclaimer.


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Old 07-01-2008, 09:18 PM
Benno Schulenberg
 
Default BSD licence

Milo Casagrande wrote:
> when you upload a translation from upstream and publish it
> as "coming from upstream", it should maintains its license;
> if you publish it as a "user upload" then, as Danilo said, you're
> messing up a little bit the translations and in that case you're
> publishing under BSD.

If the uploader is the upstream translator, it should be his or her
prerogative to do a "user upload". As the strings are his or hers,
she or he can decide to publish them under different licences, no?

However, I do hope that Launchpad is clever enough to not see
uploaded strings that are identical to packaged strings as
contributions, but instead retains for these identical strings the
licence of packaged ones.

Benno

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