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Old 01-13-2011, 10:27 AM
"Bernhard R. Link"
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

* Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> [110113 01:54]:
> > We can't demand or require anyone to do anything. Yet we expect
> > maintainers to answer bug reports, provide packages, etc. The fact that
> > you can't force anyone to do anything doesn't mean you can't say that
> > some behavior is preferred or considered best practice.
>
> Yes.
>
> But in this case I don't think we should be "expecting" maintainers to
> necessarily shepherd bug reports upstream. I don't think a maintainer
> who fails to do so is failing in their job as maintainer.
>
> The maintainer should decide whether they think doing that is a useful
> thing to be doing for that package or that bug, and communicate this
> decision to the user (and set the bug state accordingly).

The maintainer should of course assess where their work is best invested
and act accordingly.

But a package where bug reports to Debian are not properly handled or
users are required[1] to report them elsewhere is definitely not fully
well maintained.

There is no point in trying to do things you miss the workforce to do
and being honest about that is better than just piling up work. But
there is also no point in redefining success.

If there are not enough helping hands to get everything done,
prioritising work properly is doing the work "as good as we possibly
can", it is not doing it "good".

Bernhard R. Link

[1] There is nothing wrong with suggesting people to also report them
upstream, especially in cases where the kind of the bug would make it
likely that a direct interaction would generate more benefit for
upstream. But this is a favor we ask from the bug reporter here so the
request should be worded like that.


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Old 01-13-2011, 11:34 AM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Bernhard R. Link writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> The maintainer should of course assess where their work is best invested
> and act accordingly.
>
> But a package where bug reports to Debian are not properly handled or
> users are required[1] to report them elsewhere is definitely not fully
> well maintained.

I don't think this is true. I guess we'll just have to agree to
disagree.

Ian.


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Old 01-13-2011, 11:40 AM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Ben Finney writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> > But if a maintainer tells me "please go and talk to them yourself" or
> > even "please stop filing these kind of upstream bugs in Debian - you
> > know how to do it yourself upstream and I have enough to do already"
> > then that's a wish I would respect.
>
> As would I; but, as stated earlier, often the only way I can feasibly
> respect such a wish is not to report such bugs at all.

Perhaps so. In that case those bugs won't get reported. That's fine.

If I and the maintainer both think that it's not worth our own time
fighting upstream's bug system or ornery maintainers or disorganised
email swamp or whatever, then we should go and do something else more
useful - and less frustrating!

>From a purely optimisation point of view I can see the argument that
maintainers have an advantage in dealing with upstream, because of the
costs of getting to know how things work, setting up accounts, etc.
But on the other hand as a rule of thumb the maintainer's time is more
scarce than that of an individual bug submitter. So a tradeoff which
saves maintainer time, even at the cost of a bigger amount of of
submitters' time, can well be sensible.

Remember: there is no shortage of bug reports.

Ian.


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Old 01-13-2011, 12:03 PM
Olaf van der Spek
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Ian Jackson
<ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Remember: there is no shortage of bug reports.

That's unfortunately true. Why is it that bug squashing parties only
happen a short time before release while it appears that the rest of
the time the issue is ignored?


--
Olaf


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Old 01-13-2011, 12:25 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 02:03:07PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
> > Remember: there is no shortage of bug reports.
>
> That's unfortunately true. Why is it that bug squashing parties only
> happen a short time before release while it appears that the rest of
> the time the issue is ignored?

Please, don't indulge toward trolling :-). There is no cabal^Wsecret
power in Debian who decides when to organize things and when to not
organize them.

BSP can be organized whenever you want but, as a matter of fact, they
get organized only when somebody volunteer to do that. If you want to
have a BSP, say, the 1st day after the release of Squeeze, you just have
to organize one. For packages that drown into bug *reports* due to
their popularity, you might also want to organize specific *triaging*
campaigns (better if in coordination with maintainers); they will
relieve the burden of maintainers in doing triaging and let them focus
on actual bugs that random BSP-participants might not feel entitled to
fix.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 01-13-2011, 12:39 PM
Olaf van der Spek
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 02:03:07PM +0100, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
>> > Remember: there is no shortage of bug reports.
>>
>> That's unfortunately true. Why is it that bug squashing parties only
>> happen a short time before release while it appears that the rest of
>> the time the issue is ignored?
>
> Please, don't indulge toward trolling :-). There is no cabal^Wsecret
> power in Debian who decides when to organize things and when to not
> organize them.

It's about improving quality, not about trolling.

> BSP can be organized whenever you want but, as a matter of fact, they
> get organized only when somebody volunteer to do that. If you want to
> have a BSP, say, the 1st day after the release of Squeeze, you just have
> to organize one. *For packages that drown into bug *reports* due to
> their popularity, you might also want to organize specific *triaging*
> campaigns (better if in coordination with maintainers); they will
> relieve the burden of maintainers in doing triaging and let them focus
> on actual bugs that random BSP-participants might not feel entitled to
> fix.

The point is focus on solving bugs shouldn't be limited to BSPs and
the end of the release cycle.

Olaf


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Old 01-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Ansgar Burchardt
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:
> Currently, the debian Qt/KDE team has around 800 open, non-forwarded
> bugs reported against their packages. I would guess that maybe 20 of
> them is packaging issues. But we can't find them.
> The rest of the bugs (780 open-non forwarded (and 300 forwarded)) is
> pure upstream issues.

Ubuntu has a team (Bug Squad[1]) that tries to triage incoming bug
reports, including forwarding them upstream when applicable.

I don't know how successful this is, but if it has success, then maybe
we could try to recruit volunteers for a similar team in Debian as well?
This should of course include mentoring them a bit as well.

Regards,
Ansgar

[1] <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad>


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Old 01-13-2011, 01:33 PM
"Hendrik Sattler"
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Zitat von "Ansgar Burchardt" <ansgar@debian.org>:


Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:

Currently, the debian Qt/KDE team has around 800 open, non-forwarded
bugs reported against their packages. I would guess that maybe 20 of
them is packaging issues. But we can't find them.
The rest of the bugs (780 open-non forwarded (and 300 forwarded)) is
pure upstream issues.


Ubuntu has a team (Bug Squad[1]) that tries to triage incoming bug
reports, including forwarding them upstream when applicable.

I don't know how successful this is, but if it has success, then maybe
we could try to recruit volunteers for a similar team in Debian as well?
This should of course include mentoring them a bit as well.


I've some bug reports for Ubuntu for my software that are _clearly_
not related to it. It just happens to match the key words in its name.

So I don't think that I would call it "successful" :-/

HS



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Old 01-13-2011, 01:46 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Don Armstrong writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> I personally would love to see patches to the BTS to enable forwarding
> these kinds of bug reports to upstreams more easily and integrate
> everything tightly with the BTS. Unfortunately, I am perpetually short
> of time to implement them myself, as excellent as I am certain they
> would be.

That would be a very nice feature for our BTS to have. BUT any such
feature should only be enabled with respect to an upstream BTS after
discussion with and approval from the relevant upstream.

As we can see from this and previous discussions: how easy to make it
to file bugs, who can file them, how they get to be filed, and so on,
are things that people care about and have strong opinions about.
Different projects have different cultural and technical expectations.

Anecdote: while I was employed by Canonical I had to dissuade some of
my colleagues from implementing and deploying, without consent from
Debian, a feature in Launchpad that would automatically file
corresponding bug reports in the Debian BTS. I expressed the view
that doing so would be considered abuse by the Debian BTS admins and
would probably result in some emergency ad-hoc wholesale blocking of
Launchpad's access to Debian infrastructure. Not to mention an
absolutely enormous flamewar.

To all of us that would obviously have been a really bad idea.
Let us be careful not to do to our upstreams what we don't want our
downstreams to do to us.

Ian.


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Old 01-13-2011, 01:47 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Olaf van der Spek writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> The point is focus on solving bugs shouldn't be limited to BSPs and
> the end of the release cycle.

No, Stefano's point was that if you want something done, you should go
and do it rather than whining here that it isn't being done.

Ian.


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