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Old 01-12-2011, 11:33 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Olaf van der Spek writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> wrote:
> >> Will this mean that the problem will somehow disappear from
> >> Debian? Because if it's a problem detected within Debian it's my
> >> feeling that it will have to be tracked within Debian till the
> >> problem is in Debian no more.
> >
> > No. but it is a way to be honest about teh issue: We are not spending
> > debian time on fixing it.
>
> That's better than no response to a bug report at all.

That's true too.

But on the whole I think it would be better to leave these kind of
work-needed upstream bugs open in the Debian BTS but tagged and filed
appropriately.

As I understand it we are not in danger of having infrastructure
capacity problems at the BTS due to these bugs, and the maintainers
who think they are a very low priority don't want to see them can
easily arrange that with the pretty sophisticated filtering and
searching we have nowadays.

But I think that's a matter of best practice and not something I'd
beat a maintainer up about.


I do want to say that from the opposite angle, I do often really
appreciate it when a maintainer has the time to engage with upstream
over my bugs. I often file bugs in the Debian BTS which are really
upstream bugs because I think this is going to produce a better
overall result for less effort - eg, because Debian and the Debian
maintainer are better organised than the upstream. Many maintainers
seem to appreciate this too.

But if a maintainer tells me "please go and talk to them yourself" or
even "please stop filing these kind of upstream bugs in Debian - you
know how to do it yourself upstream and I have enough to do already"
then that's a wish I would respect.


So I guess ultimately what I'm saying is that questions like this
can't really be one-size-fits-all. And it is the maintainer who is
the right person to decide what the best approach is.

Ian.


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Old 01-12-2011, 11:34 PM
Felipe Sateler
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:56:56 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:

> I think it is always reasonable for the maintainer to forward the bug
> upstream.
>
> But what I think is bad is _demanding_ or _requiring_ the maintainer to
> forward the bug upstream. If they don't want to do that for whatever
> reason then asking the submitter to do so is IMO perfectly acceptable.

We can't demand or require anyone to do anything. Yet we expect
maintainers to answer bug reports, provide packages, etc. The fact that
you can't force anyone to do anything doesn't mean you can't say that
some behavior is preferred or considered best practice.



--
Saludos,
Felipe Sateler


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Old 01-12-2011, 11:38 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Felipe Sateler writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:56:56 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I think it is always reasonable for the maintainer to forward the bug
> > upstream.
> >
> > But what I think is bad is _demanding_ or _requiring_ the maintainer to
> > forward the bug upstream. If they don't want to do that for whatever
> > reason then asking the submitter to do so is IMO perfectly acceptable.
>
> We can't demand or require anyone to do anything. Yet we expect
> maintainers to answer bug reports, provide packages, etc. The fact that
> you can't force anyone to do anything doesn't mean you can't say that
> some behavior is preferred or considered best practice.

Yes.

But in this case I don't think we should be "expecting" maintainers to
necessarily shepherd bug reports upstream. I don't think a maintainer
who fails to do so is failing in their job as maintainer.

The maintainer should decide whether they think doing that is a useful
thing to be doing for that package or that bug, and communicate this
decision to the user (and set the bug state accordingly).

Ian.


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Old 01-12-2011, 11:59 PM
Olaf van der Spek
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:38 AM, Ian Jackson
<ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> But in this case I don't think we should be "expecting" maintainers to
> necessarily shepherd bug reports upstream. *I don't think a maintainer
> who fails to do so is failing in their job as maintainer.
>
> The maintainer should decide whether they think doing that is a useful
> thing to be doing for that package or that bug, and communicate this
> decision to the user (and set the bug state accordingly).

Maybe some tools (PTS) should warn about bugs that are older than X
days and are still unclassified?

Olaf


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Old 01-13-2011, 12:18 AM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Olaf van der Spek writes ("Re: Forwarding bugs upstream"):
> Maybe some tools (PTS) should warn about bugs that are older than X
> days and are still unclassified?

That's just a way to make more noise. They show up in the BTS
searches already.

Ian.


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Old 01-13-2011, 12:21 AM
Ben Finney
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> As I understand it we are not in danger of having infrastructure
> capacity problems at the BTS due to these bugs, and the maintainers
> who think they are a very low priority don't want to see them can
> easily arrange that with the pretty sophisticated filtering and
> searching we have nowadays.

Yes. If nothing in Debian will happen to a bug report until upstream
gets their act together, tagging to indicate that is fine. Closing the
bug isn't appropriate, since the bug as reported still exists in Debian.

> But I think that's a matter of best practice and not something I'd
> beat a maintainer up about.

Same here.

> I do want to say that from the opposite angle, I do often really
> appreciate it when a maintainer has the time to engage with upstream
> over my bugs.

Perhaps we don't say this enough in public.

> But if a maintainer tells me "please go and talk to them yourself" or
> even "please stop filing these kind of upstream bugs in Debian - you
> know how to do it yourself upstream and I have enough to do already"
> then that's a wish I would respect.

As would I; but, as stated earlier, often the only way I can feasibly
respect such a wish is not to report such bugs at all.

> So I guess ultimately what I'm saying is that questions like this
> can't really be one-size-fits-all. And it is the maintainer who is the
> right person to decide what the best approach is.

Sure, but that's true of just about anything associated with the
maintainer role. It's still good to discuss and argue the various
positions for what the maintainer role should entail.

--
“Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I |
` guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis.” —Jack Handey |
_o__) |
Ben Finney


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Old 01-13-2011, 02:55 AM
Don Armstrong
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Ben Finney wrote:
> But if they do refuse, then to what extent is that person
> accomplishing the maintainer role?

To the greatest extent they can, which is what all of us do. I don't
believe any maintainer is going to stand in the way of anyone who
wants to help triage their bugs and manage reporting them upstream. I
believe everyone thinks that having any bugs which are not personally
handled is suboptimal, but we are limited by person-hours; every
maintainer that I have personally spoken to about this issue who has
to ask for users to forward the bugs themselves would gladly accept
assistance from someone to do it for them.

I personally would love to see patches to the BTS to enable forwarding
these kinds of bug reports to upstreams more easily and integrate
everything tightly with the BTS. Unfortunately, I am perpetually short
of time to implement them myself, as excellent as I am certain they
would be.


Don Armstrong

--
All my dreams came true.
I just didn't think them through.
-- a softer world #388
http://www.asofterworld.com/index.php?id=388

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Old 01-13-2011, 07:19 AM
Andreas Tille
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 10:59:40AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> writes:

I really like Russ Allbery's sane words about this topic.

> To argue that is *not* to require or demand that anyone do any work, nor
> to strip anyone of their role. I wish I knew how to avert the seemingly
> inevitable charges of that which arise any time we discuss what the
> maintainer role entails.

I understood the maintainer role as a set of tasks. Mediating between
upstream and user is one part of this task and forewarding bugs belongs
to this mediation. However, real life has turned out that we can not
handle all our tasks with the same priority. If there is a conflict in
the priorisation usually some common sense should be applied. I
consider it common sense to *kindly* ask the bug reporter whether he
feels able to help me in doing one of my tasks to foreward the bug to
upstream himself.

Common sense also applies when deciding whether the bug reporter seems
to be competent enough to do this himself. Usually the bug report
itself will tell the maintainer whether the reporter will be able to
handle it himself (in case of a detailed bug report with reasonable
information), whether the reporter needs extra advise (= is not able to
do the work and I as the maintainer need to do the forewarding myself or
at least enrich the report with extra information) or whatever
reasonable action.

In short: The Debian maintainer is responsible that a bug will be
reported upstream. I don't see a problem if he delegates the actual
work to somebody else who is able and willing to do the job (but please
be nice to the user when asking for this kind of help). Free software
lives from cooperation.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Old 01-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Sune Vuorela
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On 2011-01-13, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@debian.org> wrote:
> We can't demand or require anyone to do anything. Yet we expect

I think this is mostly wrong.

We can demand or require people to step down. And we should if we don't
think they do a proper job.

Now we just need to define what a proper job is.

/Sune


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Old 01-13-2011, 09:54 AM
Olaf van der Spek
 
Default Forwarding bugs upstream

On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> wrote:
> On 2011-01-13, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@debian.org> wrote:
>> We can't demand or require anyone to do anything. Yet we expect
>
> I think this is mostly wrong.
>
> We can demand or require people to step down. And we should if we don't
> think they do a proper job.
>
> Now we just need to define what a proper job is.

Instead of stepping down, it might be better to ask for a co-maintainer.

Olaf


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