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Old 04-18-2008, 01:11 PM
cherryfinals
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

> On Friday, 18 April 2008 05:24:58 Chris Miller wrote:
"Then again, the more I learn how to use Linux, the more I find that
the mouse is just a tool to indicate which terminal session I want to
type into."

Here's something that needs to be considered:

There seems to be a common thread in the Linux community that tends to
keep it off the home/office desktop.

Now before I go further with this thought, let me say I've been working
with computers professionally since 1977. I've built kit systems and
wrote my original software in assembler. I've also fought in the
tech-support trenches and currently have a CISSP.

I retired my last XP system about four months ago and have been using
Kubuntu for all my home systems for more than a year.

The common thread I'm referring to, is how all the Linux coders keep
insisting that 'real computer people' have to use a command line.
Here's a clue... 90% of the business world wants to get work done and
are never going to take a massive step backwards to teaching people how
to use a terminal window.

If a GUI system fails, that is either a bug or a design flaw and it
needs to be fixed, not given a band-aid patch by telling some writer,
artist, clerk or executive to open a terminal window and type sudo.

Currently, I'm writing novels, creating artwork and doing audio/video
editing with my systems. If I have to stop what I'm doing to open a
terminal, that just ticks me off. In discussions with managers, office
workers and other writers, I find most of them feel the same way.

I've converted a few users to Linux, but our tribe still has a ways to
go to make it a seamless GUI environment.

This is just a few observations from an olde pharte that has outgrown
terminal windows. I know there are going to be more than a few flames
from the coders and YMMV.


Stan

"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt


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Old 04-18-2008, 01:48 PM
"Jonas Norlander"
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

2008/4/18 cherryfinals <cherryfinals@yahoo.com>:
> > On Friday, 18 April 2008 05:24:58 Chris Miller wrote:
> "Then again, the more I learn how to use Linux, the more I find that
> the mouse is just a tool to indicate which terminal session I want to
> type into."
>
> Here's something that needs to be considered:
>
> There seems to be a common thread in the Linux community that tends to
> keep it off the home/office desktop.
>
> Now before I go further with this thought, let me say I've been working
> with computers professionally since 1977. I've built kit systems and
> wrote my original software in assembler. I've also fought in the
> tech-support trenches and currently have a CISSP.
>
> I retired my last XP system about four months ago and have been using
> Kubuntu for all my home systems for more than a year.
>
> The common thread I'm referring to, is how all the Linux coders keep
> insisting that 'real computer people' have to use a command line.
> Here's a clue... 90% of the business world wants to get work done and
> are never going to take a massive step backwards to teaching people how
> to use a terminal window.
>
> If a GUI system fails, that is either a bug or a design flaw and it
> needs to be fixed, not given a band-aid patch by telling some writer,
> artist, clerk or executive to open a terminal window and type sudo.
>
> Currently, I'm writing novels, creating artwork and doing audio/video
> editing with my systems. If I have to stop what I'm doing to open a
> terminal, that just ticks me off. In discussions with managers, office
> workers and other writers, I find most of them feel the same way.
>
> I've converted a few users to Linux, but our tribe still has a ways to
> go to make it a seamless GUI environment.
>
> This is just a few observations from an olde pharte that has outgrown
> terminal windows. I know there are going to be more than a few flames
> from the coders and YMMV.
>
>
> Stan
>

You are right in what you say but i don't see what CLI has do with using
mouse or not? I use mouse all the time both in "pure" CLI and in xterm/Konsole.
If you can work with a program without using the mouse, CLI or GUI that's good.
Less stress in your joints in the arm and hand, and it's faster if you know the
short commands.

There is no right or wrong way, we all do it the way that suit us
best. But if you
know your way around all the Unix tools no GUI can beet that in speed and
flexibility.

/ Jonas

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Old 04-18-2008, 01:51 PM
Donn
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

> There seems to be a common thread in the Linux community that tends to
> keep it off the home/office desktop.
Hell yeah -- I prefer to move the mouse around by typing:
up
up
right
right
up



Yeah, I get what you are saying. My take is that a console just fits me for
some things and I really like to have it there - but gui's are certainly
super important too.

d

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Old 04-18-2008, 01:58 PM
cherryfinals
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

> There is no right or wrong way, we all do it the way that suit us
best. But if you know your way around all the Unix tools no GUI can
beet that in speed and flexibility.

Jonas,

I agree about being faster, but the key phrase there is "know your way
around all the Unix tools..." That is fine for those that use and want
to learn all those tools. It is not fine for general users and office
workers. I know 'some' of them, but I have a lot of work to get done
and the last thing I need to do right now is learn all the Unix
commands.

The majority of people just want to click on a menu, select an item and
get their job done. Any GUI is much easier to use than memorizing
command structures.

Try telling some commercial artist, using Photoshop that they will have
to open a terminal window to convert a file and see what sort of
response you get.

Stan



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Old 04-18-2008, 01:58 PM
"p.daniels"
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

cherryfinals wrote:
*snip*
> Currently, I'm writing novels, creating artwork and doing audio/video
> editing with my systems. If I have to stop what I'm doing to open a
> terminal, that just ticks me off. In discussions with managers, office
> workers and other writers, I find most of them feel the same way.
First, I'd much rather use the command line when it is more convenient
to do so, and I've got nowhere near the "street cred" that you do. I'm
just a 26 year old wannabe, really.

Second, when exactly during your writing, graphics, or AV work do you
have to use the terminal?

-pd-

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Old 04-18-2008, 02:30 PM
"p.daniels"
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

cherryfinals wrote:
> Jonas,
>
> I agree about being faster, but the key phrase there is "know your way
> around all the Unix tools..." That is fine for those that use and want
> to learn all those tools. It is not fine for general users and office
> workers. I know 'some' of them, but I have a lot of work to get done
> and the last thing I need to do right now is learn all the Unix
> commands.
>
You don't have to learn all the Unix commands. You have the option of
learnning the Unix commands you'd like to learn if you feel it would
help your work. Which beats That Other OS.
> Any GUI is much easier to use than memorizing command structures.
>
Quantify "easier" for me and I'll tell you whether I agree. Easier for
someone who's never used the system before? Yes. Easier for someone
who's used the system for say a year? I don't think so. YMMV.
> Try telling some commercial artist, using Photoshop that they will have
> to open a terminal window to convert a file and see what sort of
> response you get.
>
Yeah, except that's not true.

-p.

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Old 04-18-2008, 02:33 PM
cherryfinals
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

> First, I'd much rather use the command line when it is more
convenient to do so, and I've got nowhere near the "street cred" that
you do.
> I'm just a 26 year old wannabe, really.

Don't worry about it. You probably know ten time what I do about *nix.

> Second, when exactly during your writing, graphics, or AV work do you
have to use the terminal?

The other day, for example.. For reasons I still haven't figured out, I
lost 'rights' to a whole folder of stuff I was working on. I had to run
kdesudo to get it back and then I found out that may have caused other
problems. So, I ended up using the console to re-asign rights.

It's just little, annoying things that drive me nuts at times. Heheh...


Stan



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Old 04-18-2008, 03:03 PM
"p.daniels"
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

cherryfinals wrote:
>> First, I'd much rather use the command line when it is more
>>
> convenient to do so, and I've got nowhere near the "street cred" that
> you do.
>
>> I'm just a 26 year old wannabe, really.
>>
>
> Don't worry about it. You probably know ten time what I do about *nix.
>
>
>> Second, when exactly during your writing, graphics, or AV work do you
>>
> have to use the terminal?
>
> The other day, for example.. For reasons I still haven't figured out, I
> lost 'rights' to a whole folder of stuff I was working on. I had to run
> kdesudo to get it back and then I found out that may have caused other
> problems. So, I ended up using the console to re-asign rights.
>
> It's just little, annoying things that drive me nuts at times. Heheh...
>
>
> Stan
>
You could have changed the permissions in "properties." Just a thought
for next time.

-pd-

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Old 04-18-2008, 03:13 PM
cherryfinals
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

> You could have changed the permissions in "properties." Just a
> thought
> for next time.

That's just it. I could not change permission in 'properties'. I had no
choice but to drop to super-user mode. I change properties all the time
in Konquerer when setting up webpages.

Stan


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Old 04-18-2008, 03:22 PM
"Chris Miller"
 
Default Usage - Coders vs Writer

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 6:11 AM, cherryfinals <cherryfinals@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, 18 April 2008 05:24:58 Chris Miller wrote:
> "Then again, the more I learn how to use Linux, the more I find that
> the mouse is just a tool to indicate which terminal session I want to
> type into."
>
> Here's something that needs to be considered:
>
> There seems to be a common thread in the Linux community that tends to
> keep it off the home/office desktop.
>
> Now before I go further with this thought, let me say I've been working
> with computers professionally since 1977. I've built kit systems and
> wrote my original software in assembler. I've also fought in the
> tech-support trenches and currently have a CISSP.
>
> I retired my last XP system about four months ago and have been using
> Kubuntu for all my home systems for more than a year.
>
> The common thread I'm referring to, is how all the Linux coders keep
> insisting that 'real computer people' have to use a command line.
> Here's a clue... 90% of the business world wants to get work done and
> are never going to take a massive step backwards to teaching people how
> to use a terminal window.

I am a coder, so I guess I fit perfectly into the stereotype!

> If a GUI system fails, that is either a bug or a design flaw and it
> needs to be fixed, not given a band-aid patch by telling some writer,
> artist, clerk or executive to open a terminal window and type sudo.
>
> Currently, I'm writing novels, creating artwork and doing audio/video
> editing with my systems. If I have to stop what I'm doing to open a
> terminal, that just ticks me off. In discussions with managers, office
> workers and other writers, I find most of them feel the same way.
>
> I've converted a few users to Linux, but our tribe still has a ways to
> go to make it a seamless GUI environment.
>
> This is just a few observations from an olde pharte that has outgrown
> terminal windows. I know there are going to be more than a few flames
> from the coders and YMMV.

For what you do (not code) terminal windows are inappropriate...
except for _maybe_ vi and TeX. For what I do (building software,
administering remote web servers) GUI tools are more often than not
entirely inappropriate.

"There ain't no right or wrong!" Thank heavens for Linux and
Open-Source Software in general for liberating us from the (nasty!)
Windows CMD shell tyranny, and giving us the choice to decide for
ourselves what the computer should be.

--
Registered Linux Addict #431495
http://profile.xfire.com/mrstalinman | John 3:16!
http://www.fsdev.net/ | http://lordsauron.wordpress.com/

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