Ryan Gauger wrote:
> Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts?

See my other mail from yesterday evening.

> I (or somebody else
> on this ml) may be able to help you out.

Thanks, but I don't think that is necessary. For now I decided that I
don't want TB but wait for a working Kmail2.

> For me, it works better
> than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
> account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!

The automatic account setup is not interesting for me - I know how to do
it manually. Granted, it saves a few minutes looking up server settings,
but that is all easily available from my kmail settings. Importing all
my old mail is far more important for me.

> On May 14, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Nils Kassube <kassube@gmx.net> wrote:

It would be nice, if you would refrain from top posting. Thank you.


Nils

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On 16/05/12 06:08, Nils Kassube wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 15/05/12 15:31, Nils Kassube wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 15/05/12 14:10, Nils Kassube wrote:

Because Thunderbird hurts even more (IMHO). I had a brief look at
Thunderbird recently, and to me it looks worse than it did the
last time I tried it (some years ago).

Which, of course, requires two questions to be asked:

1. Which version of Thunderbird; and

The version coming with 12.04.

Which is....?

Well, you are the TB expert here and therefore you should know that
Kubuntu installs the current version.


Well, since I don't run 12.04 I couldn't possibly know which version it
installs. I am only a trainee-psychic at the moment and fully qualified.



But I checked it, it is 12.0.1.


Thanks. (Now, that wasn't too difficult was it? :-) .



2. Why did it "[look] worse than it did the last time" during your
cursory/fleeting look at it?
I don't remember now, but I'll try it again and then I'll answer
that question.

That would be great. Not only would it give me some idea of what may
have grieved you but others as well who may be thinking of switching
to something which actually works.

1. The configuration page offers a start page URL? I thought TB is an
email clinet, not a browser.

2. The configuration page offers add-ons - again it looks too much like
a browser to me. One of the add-ons is adblock plus - what does that
have to do with email?

3. There is an option to accept cookies? Again, what does that have to
do with an email client?


I'll answer all these 3 as one question.

When you first install Thunderbird it runs whatever you have as the
default browser - eg, Firefox if that is your default or Konqueror if
that's the default browser. This is done to show you the page which
gives you not only a Welcome screen but also gives you information about
what is available - as Add-ons for example. No mysteries here.


Thunderbird is a mail client and handles e-mail - and this e-mail can be
either in ASCII format or in HTML format hence the possible need to use
AdBlock (as well as other security extensions - if you are in the habit
of opening e-mails from unknown persons/sources).


And as far as cookies are concerned, I am subscribed to a newletter
which I receive daily. The newsletter comes in 2 formats: ASCII or HTML;
and if I read it in the latter format (which is what I prefer) I get a
cookie which does 2 things: 1) it checks that I am a subscriber and 2)
it then knows that I want to read it in HTML format the next time I go
to read it in Thunderbird. Again, nothing mysterious about this.




Granted, those three points are not too important but at least it looks
unappealing to me.

4. I want to import mails from kmail. Well, I know that TB doesn't
understand maildir, so I copied some mails to a new mbox folder before I
started TB. But how can I import those mails? While there is an import
option, it doesn't seem to do anything - at least I couldn't convince it
to give me a file dialog to search for the mbox file with the mails I
have saved.


I think the answer lies here:

http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=290125

but as I have never used kmail I can only assume that the solution
offered was successful to the person who raised the question.



Of course it isn't useful to continue testing at this point. I have a
lot of saved mails that I don't want to throw away. So obviously TB is
not usable for me.


Obviously.....

BC

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On 16/05/12 11:45, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:

Em ter�a-feira 15 maio 2012, Ryan Gauger escreveu:

Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts? I (or somebody else
on this ml) may be able to help you out. For me, it works better
than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!


The main issue that prevents me from migrating to Thunderbird is that
its local storage is mbox and this format is very prone to corruption
and other problems when you have too many e-mails stored or when you
receive and delete many e-mails very often.


WHOA there! Why are you propagating misinformation?

I have e-mails going back 7 years; I delete messages every day (they go
into Trash) and I have never, ever, ever, had a corruption of the mail
folders. NEVER!


After deleting the messages I Compact the folders. And every month I go
to the Trash folder and ARCHIVE the previous month's deleted messages
(the archiving is done by Thunderbird itself which is a new feature in
the latest versions of TB).


And with all of this being done, there have never been any corruptions.


I do both and I don't like
the idea of having all my e-mail history in the hands of some cloud
provider.


WHAT "cloud provider"?!

The messages are on your HDD, on your own computer.

Are you confusing Thunderbird with some other mail client?



I want a local copy of my e-mail archive.


See above - I archive my mail once a month and this is done by Thunderbird.

[.............]

BC

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Basil Chupin wrote:
> On 16/05/12 06:08, Nils Kassube wrote:
> > 4. I want to import mails from kmail. Well, I know that TB doesn't
> > understand maildir, so I copied some mails to a new mbox folder
> > before I started TB. But how can I import those mails? While there
> > is an import option, it doesn't seem to do anything - at least I
> > couldn't convince it to give me a file dialog to search for the
> > mbox file with the mails I have saved.
>
> I think the answer lies here:
>
> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=290125
>
> but as I have never used kmail I can only assume that the solution
> offered was successful to the person who raised the question.

Thanks for searching for a solution, but that forum post doesn't really
help. The only suggestion I could find there was to export all mail and
then setup a pop3 server to receive the old mail with TB from that
server. IMHO that is a bit too much work (not that I couldn't do it).
And that's why I think that it hurts even more to move to TB than wait
for a sufficiently working Kmail2.

When I tested the (IIRC) alpha2 version of 12.04, kmail2 crashed
repeatedly. That's why I tried TB and found out that I didn't like it.
However before I tried other email clients, came a new KDE version
including a new Kmail2. Suddenly the crashed were gone and it looked
much brighter. Of course I would prefer to stay with kmail* because that
spares the export/import step to keep my old mail and with a little
shell script I could also transfer my filters. But the filters don't
work reliably for now and the local mailbox doesn't work as expected. So
there are still some issues but I expect improvements in the not too far
future. I'm not in a hurry - 10.04 still works great for me.


Nils

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2012/5/16 Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au>:
> On 16/05/12 11:45, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:
>>
>> Em ter�a-feira 15 maio 2012, Ryan Gauger escreveu:
>>
>>> Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts? I (or somebody else
>>> on this ml) may be able to help you out. For me, it works better
>>> than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
>>> account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!
>>>
>> The main issue that prevents me from migrating to Thunderbird is that
>> its local storage is mbox and this format is very prone to corruption
>> and other problems when you have too many e-mails stored or when you
>> receive and delete many e-mails very often.
>
>
> WHOA there! Why are you propagating misinformation?

What? I'm just listing some well known facts that I've learn by my own
experience and that are easily verifiable in articles about this
subject all over the net. Here's a short text explaining some of the
differences between mbox and maildir:
http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/oneiric/man5/maildir.5.html
Of course, if you look for it, you can find much more detailed
information about mbox problems.

And you, what is your excuse for accusing me of deliberately doing such a thing?

> I have e-mails going back 7 years; I delete messages every day (they go into
> Trash) and I have never, ever, ever, had a corruption of the mail folders.
> NEVER!

Lucky you. That has not been my experience. And you have been using
Thunderbird for all these 7 years or you have migrated to it recently?

> After deleting the messages I Compact the folders. And every month I go to
> the Trash folder and ARCHIVE the previous month's deleted messages (the
> archiving is done by Thunderbird itself which is a new feature in the latest
> versions of TB).
>
> And with all of this being done, there have never been any corruptions.
>

I see, now I understand. But I surely don't want to compact each one
of the folders I use to store messages from each list that I subscribe
to every day. If you are willing to do this work on a daily basis,
then you indeed can use mbox with a relatively low risk of corruption.
Even then, give Thunderbird enough time and, if you really receive and
delete many e-mails daily, you are likely to get some level of
corruption eventually because mbox files also get corrupted if the
e-mail client misbehaves, freezes or crashes while writing to them.
Compacting mailboxes is something required only by mbox and other
similar formats that store each mail folder in one single file.
One-file-per-message storages like maildir do not require this kind of
user intervention to prevent you from wasting disk space or corrupting
your mail folders.
By itself, the fact that mbox requires the user to do this kind of
maintenance in order to keep his e-mails safe tells you something
about the reliability of the storage, doesn't it? Maybe that's why we
have requests like these in TBs bugzilla:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58308
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=361807

Note that these reliability problems are not bugs in Thunderbird, they
are inherent to the mbox format. Thunderbird developers have made
progresses on this matter by implementing pluggable storages, but this
is in early alpha stage and it's not accessible to the common user for
now. There's no way for the user to choose a storage other than mbox
using TB's GUI as of yet.

>> Â*I do both and I don't like
>> the idea of having all my e-mail history in the hands of some cloud
>> provider.
>
>
> WHAT "cloud provider"?!

Google, Hotmail, Yahoo or whatever you choose to use to store your
messages and access them using IMAP.

> The messages are on your HDD, on your own computer.
>
> Are you confusing Thunderbird with some other mail client?

No, maybe you misunderstood something I wrote. I was clearly referring
to remote storaging and IMAP access when I mentioned cloud providers.

>> Â*I want a local copy of my e-mail archive.
>
>
> See above - I archive my mail once a month and this is done by Thunderbird.

Didn't say you can't store local copies of your mail using
Thunderbird. What I said is that if you choose to store them locally
and if you are a heavy e-mail user, then you are bound to face at
least some of the many problems associated with the mbox storage,
given enough time. Unless you are willing to compact and archive very
often like it seems to be your case. I'm not, however. I'm lazy and
have more interesting things to spend my time with.

[]'s
Marcelo

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On 05/15/2012 11:51 PM, Nils Kassube wrote:

Ryan Gauger wrote:

Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts?

See my other mail from yesterday evening.


I (or somebody else
on this ml) may be able to help you out.

Thanks, but I don't think that is necessary. For now I decided that I
don't want TB but wait for a working Kmail2.


For me, it works better
than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!

The automatic account setup is not interesting for me - I know how to do
it manually. Granted, it saves a few minutes looking up server settings,
but that is all easily available from my kmail settings. Importing all
my old mail is far more important for me.


On May 14, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Nils Kassube<kassube@gmx.net> wrote:

It would be nice, if you would refrain from top posting. Thank you.


Nils

I feel so stupid, but could you please explain to me what top posting
is? Thanks!


---Ryan

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News to me - In a recent discussion in another list on the size needed
for a /home directory I pointed out that thunderbird on my boxes
occupies >72 GB and it's growing so saying 30GB for /home was a nonsense.


I backup thunderbird to other machines (Kubuntu and openSUSE) in case I
have to use an alternate and especially when the main box has to go down
for surgery.
if I use another box in the interim, when the main box is back up and
stable, I replace .thunderbird on it, move back the latest to it and
carry on seamlessly.


In all the years I have been using thunderbird I have not lost an email
or suffered a corruption by deleting or any other action.

Regards
Sid.

On 16/05/12 05:53, kubuntu-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:


Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts? I (or somebody else
on this ml) may be able to help you out. For me, it works better
than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!

The main issue that prevents me from migrating to Thunderbird is that
its local storage is mbox and this format is very prone to corruption
and other problems when you have too many e-mails stored or when you
receive and delete many e-mails very often. I do both and I don't like
the idea of having all my e-mail history in the hands of some cloud
provider. I want a local copy of my e-mail archive. People who doesn't
mind that can use IMAP and in this case there is no storage problem.
KMail uses mdir (one file per message) and I've never lost an e-mail
with it. This format also makes it easier to access any message without
running KMail if you need to (searching a backup, for example), not
mentioning that several processes can easily access the mail storage at
the same time without any problem at all.
This is the main problem, but there are many other features of KMail
that do not exist in Thunderbird. KMail has quick shortcuts for anything
you can imagine and you can customize them if you like. For example, I
subscribe to many distribution lists and I can't possibly read all the
e-mail I get from all of them, so I use the "delete thread" shortcut
very often. If a thread does not interest me, I just CTRL+DEL it at
once. Thunderbird has no shortcut for this nor it allows me to create
one. It's painful to open the menu and click the delete thread command
for every thread I want to delete, it's too time consuming. There are
many, many other cases in which the lack of shortcuts or the
impossibility to customize them get in the way.
In Thunderbird, you must have a trash folder for each of your mailboxes.
I have eight of them and surely do not want to remember which trash do I
need to search if I want do recover a deleted message. I KMail you can
have individual trashes if you like, but you can setup only one trash if
you want.
In KMail, you can configure a folder to store messages of a given
distribution list. You filter the messages from this list to that folder
and KMail scans the headers of the messages and automatically detects
the commands supported by the list server. So it adds these commands to
the right-click menu of the folder. When you right click the folder, you
get commands like "New message to distribution list", "cancel
subscription", and so on.
You can also define templates and the identity that should be used by
default when you start a new message when any given folder is selected.
You can define which dictionary should be used by default when you
select a given identity as the sender for a message. For me, who write
e-mails in three different languages, it's a nice feature.
You can configure a list of words that you normally use in the body of
an e-mail when you send attachments (like attached, attachment, etc.),
so KMail reminds you to attach the file if you use one of these words
and click send without attaching any file.

I can go on and on for a long time listing a huge number of features
that exist in KMail but not in Thunderbird, but you get the idea. They
are mostly simple features and any one of them isn't a big deal by
itself, but when you use a lot of them and remember you will lose them
all if you migrate, then you will think twice before you do the change.

I was tempted to migrate to other e-mail client many times since when
the KMail version from KDE 3.5.x was deprecated, because KMail is really
buggy in its current stage. However, nevertheless I think it is still
more advantageous to me to keep using it buggy as it is than to migrate
for other e-mail client.

[]'s
Marcelo



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:51:54 +0200
From: Nils Kassube<kassube@gmx.net>
To: kubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: 12.04 is the worst yet
Message-ID:<201205160651.54679.kassube@gmx.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Ryan Gauger wrote:

Could you please explain why Thunderbird hurts?

See my other mail from yesterday evening.


I (or somebody else
on this ml) may be able to help you out.

Thanks, but I don't think that is necessary. For now I decided that I
don't want TB but wait for a working Kmail2.


For me, it works better
than Kmail because Thunderbird automatically sets up your email
account, but I don't think Kmail does. Thanks!

The automatic account setup is not interesting for me - I know how to do
it manually. Granted, it saves a few minutes looking up server settings,
but that is all easily available from my kmail settings. Importing all
my old mail is far more important for me.


On May 14, 2012, at 11:10 PM, Nils Kassube<kassube@gmx.net> wrote:

It would be nice, if you would refrain from top posting. Thank you.


Nils



------------------------------




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Ryan Gauger wrote:
> On 05/15/2012 11:51 PM, Nils Kassube wrote:
> > It would be nice, if you would refrain from top posting. Thank you.
>
> I feel so stupid, but could you please explain to me what top posting
> is? Thanks!

There's no need to feel stupid if you don't know what top posting is. I
think, this Wikipedia article explains it better than I could:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting> See also
section "Technical guidelines" of
<http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists>.


Nils

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On 16/05/12 21:15, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:

2012/5/16 Basil Chupin<blchupin@iinet.net.au>:


[.............]



I have e-mails going back 7 years; I delete messages every day (they go into
Trash) and I have never, ever, ever, had a corruption of the mail folders.
NEVER!

Lucky you. That has not been my experience. And you have been using
Thunderbird for all these 7 years or you have migrated to it recently?


I have been using Thunderbird when it first started of as Netscape. Now,
that's a very long time ago.


In 2001 I started to use XP and had Thunderbird at that time. A year
later I started to use Linux and all I had to do was to simply copy the
Thunderbird directory over to Linux (S.u.S.E. now called openSUSE) and
carried on without any problems.


Then some 7 years ago I had a bad crash, losing 2 HDDs which not only
contained Linux but also the backups on the second HDD. I had to replace
the HDDs and therefore had to start from scratch with respect to
Thunderbird mail and Firefox settings.


I have been using the same Thunderbird mail directory since that time
and in various upgrades of the Linux system and replacements of HDDs.


And in all this time - starting way back in 2001 - I have never, ever,
lost a message nor had a corruption of the mail folders.




After deleting the messages I Compact the folders. And every month I go to
the Trash folder and ARCHIVE the previous month's deleted messages (the
archiving is done by Thunderbird itself which is a new feature in the latest
versions of TB).

And with all of this being done, there have never been any corruptions.


I see, now I understand.


No, I don't think that you do - nor want to for that matter. Let me
explain once again....




But I surely don't want to compact each one
of the folders I use to store messages from each list that I subscribe
to every day. If you are willing to do this work on a daily basis,


As I read the posts in the various folders I delete the most irrelevant
(from my perspective) posts. These deletes go into a folder called TRASH.


At the end of the day, before going to bed, I - alas and alack! - have
to spend time and effort to do 4 mouse-clicks to have all the folders
compacted (for the deleted messages).


The compacting takes about 2 seconds on a bad day - or less on a good
day. (Mind you, when I was using a 32-bit system the compacting took ~10
seconds on a 'bad day'.)


Once a month I go to the TRASH folder and select the deleted messages
received in the previous month and these are then archived by
Thunderbird and go into the ARCHIVES folder which is sub-divided into
MONTHly folders (this can be set to be weekly or yearly sub-folders if
one chose to do so). The actual archiving takes about 4 or 5 seconds -
but selecting what I want to archive takes a bit longer of course.


And with all this deleting-compacting-archiving I have not lost a single
message.



[...............]

BC

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Le 17/05/2012 07:12, Basil Chupin a écrit :

On 16/05/12 21:15, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote:

2012/5/16 Basil Chupin<blchupin@iinet.net.au>:


[.............]


I have e-mails going back 7 years; I delete messages every day (they
go into
Trash) and I have never, ever, ever, had a corruption of the mail
folders.

NEVER!

Lucky you. That has not been my experience. And you have been using
Thunderbird for all these 7 years or you have migrated to it recently?


I have been using Thunderbird when it first started of as Netscape.
Now, that's a very long time ago.


In 2001 I started to use XP and had Thunderbird at that time. A year
later I started to use Linux and all I had to do was to simply copy
the Thunderbird directory over to Linux (S.u.S.E. now called openSUSE)
and carried on without any problems.


Then some 7 years ago I had a bad crash, losing 2 HDDs which not only
contained Linux but also the backups on the second HDD. I had to
replace the HDDs and therefore had to start from scratch with respect
to Thunderbird mail and Firefox settings.


I have been using the same Thunderbird mail directory since that time
and in various upgrades of the Linux system and replacements of HDDs.


And in all this time - starting way back in 2001 - I have never, ever,
lost a message nor had a corruption of the mail folders.



After deleting the messages I Compact the folders. And every month I
go to

the Trash folder and ARCHIVE the previous month's deleted messages (the
archiving is done by Thunderbird itself which is a new feature in
the latest

versions of TB).

And with all of this being done, there have never been any corruptions.


I see, now I understand.


No, I don't think that you do - nor want to for that matter. Let me
explain once again....




But I surely don't want to compact each one
of the folders I use to store messages from each list that I subscribe
to every day. If you are willing to do this work on a daily basis,


As I read the posts in the various folders I delete the most
irrelevant (from my perspective) posts. These deletes go into a folder
called TRASH.


At the end of the day, before going to bed, I - alas and alack! - have
to spend time and effort to do 4 mouse-clicks to have all the folders
compacted (for the deleted messages).


The compacting takes about 2 seconds on a bad day - or less on a good
day. (Mind you, when I was using a 32-bit system the compacting took
~10 seconds on a 'bad day'.)


Once a month I go to the TRASH folder and select the deleted messages
received in the previous month and these are then archived by
Thunderbird and go into the ARCHIVES folder which is sub-divided into
MONTHly folders (this can be set to be weekly or yearly sub-folders if
one chose to do so). The actual archiving takes about 4 or 5 seconds -
but selecting what I want to archive takes a bit longer of course.


And with all this deleting-compacting-archiving I have not lost a
single message.



[...............]

BC
I have done few update-manager -d recently and things look like getting
better with 12.04, no more alerts about my system crashing like before !



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