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Old 11-29-2007, 06:04 AM
Nils Kassube
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Sylviane et Perry White wrote:
> Nils wrote:
> > May I suggest you use an obviously fake browser ID? Something like IE
> > 11.3 on Mac OSX. Until now i found no site that didn't accept it.
> > they seem to only look for MSIE with a number >= 5
>
> Seriously you tried that, declaring your browser is as IE 11.3 (the
> only one of its kind, I guess), with better results as when declaring
> it as Konk?

Yes, while I don't always use the same number, I definitely use a
nonexistant IE version number

The problem is that some sites only give you an error page if your browser
doesn't identify as IE. But of course I use Konqueror to display the page
which is no real problem.


Nils

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Old 11-29-2007, 08:30 AM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

On 28/11/2007, Sylviane et Perry White <spwhite@freesurf.ch> wrote:
> Dotan wrote:
> > Why not adapt a parallel strategy and write to those responsible for
> > the websites in question? I have found that most websites, large and
> > small, are in fact willing to make the necessary changes once enough
> > people ask them to.
> I would consider that strategy If I were certain the problem comes from them
> and not from me, but I'm way to ignorant.

Then you can contact me off list and I'll check it out. I used to run
http://IE-Only.com which was a resource for dealing with sites that
required IE. I have contacted hundreds of webmasters and have seen
lots of change.

> For example when I install some codecs and then Firefox is able to display a
> video but not Konq, can I blame the website or did I just fail to make Konq
> aware of this codec?

Codec for video content? I would not blame the website. A good place
to start checking for who's to blame is at the W3C's Markup Validation
Service:
http://validator.w3.org/

It's not 100%, but it is a great start.

> Another example is when a site appears to have different codings for the
> "background" page and some text it displays in an "inner window".
> By changing the coding I can get the correct representation of the french
> accentuated characters on the outer or inner parts, but not both together.
> (Now I am sorry I missed the opportunity to mark that link and look it up
> under M$)

In English it's called the "encoding" not "coding". Yes, you can blame
the webpage for that. They are most likely using a Microsoft encoding
of the CP variety. I have much experience in this as well, as I run
the Hebrew-language http://gibberish.co.il which translates wrongly
encoded text. Write to the webmaster in these cases and request that
they use UTF-8 in all places. UTF-8 will never cause gibberish
problems like you mention.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:18 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Sylviane et Perry White wrote:

> Derek, do you mean a site will format the data differently for different
> browsers, but if that site is tricked into beliving it is sending to
> another browser, the result may be better?

Exactly. It's very common for the javascript in a web page to begin with
something like:

if (some-test-that-shows-I'm-running-IE) {
execute-IE-code
} else {
execute-Netscape-code
}

The "else" part of that statement tends to change: sometimes it just assumes
that anything that isn't IE works like Netscape, which is usually a safe
bet (but not always). Other times it checks if it's actually Netscape, and
if not might just refuse to work at all.

> Seriously you tried that, declaring your browser is as IE 11.3 (the only
> one of its kind, I guess), with better results as when declaring it as
> Konk?

Sure. The test (which I didn't actually put in the code above, because I no
longer ever use it) checks the "user-agent" strings the browsers report,
and commonly needs to know if you're running IE whether it's version 4, 5,
or 6+ (and presumably we'll start seeing stuff written to specifically use
features of 7, now). So if you just lie and tell it you're running the
uber-IE, it's always going to assume it's got the latest and greatest IE
features. I don't find identifying as IE - any version - terribly useful
on most sites, because the script then starts trying to do things that no
sane browser _can_ do.

>> Why not adapt a parallel strategy and write to those responsible for
>> the websites in question? I have found that most websites, large and
>> small, are in fact willing to make the necessary changes once enough
>> people ask them to.

> I would consider that strategy If I were certain the problem comes from
> them and not from me, but I'm way to ignorant.
>
> For example when I install some codecs and then Firefox is able to display
> a video but not Konq, can I blame the website or did I just fail to make
> Konq aware of this codec?

I'd say that's _always_ the coder's problem. Somebody sent me a link the
other day to a Yahoo site that wouldn't display in either Konqueror or
Firefox - but it quite clearly told me what was missing from the
configurations. Since I have never needed those plugins before, I just
waited until I was in the office and used IE :-) but I'm sure I could have
followed the instructions and got Firefox working. So if a site fails to
work under your favorite browser, whatever that is - and doesn't at least
tell you _why_ , tell the site administrator. If enough people start doing
that, they _will_ fix it.

> Another example is when a site appears to have different codings for the
> "background" page and some text it displays in an "inner window".
> By changing the coding I can get the correct representation of the french
> accentuated characters on the outer or inner parts, but not both together.
> (Now I am sorry I missed the opportunity to mark that link and look it up
> under M$)

I'd _definitely_ complain about that - that's almost always because those of
us building websites in English don't have enough internationalized test
data. I got a complaint yesterday that a page was displaying a square box
instead of an e-acute, and when I checked my data it was the only accented
character on the whole database. Obviously, since I'm dealing with
French-Canadian names, I should expect to encounter a few!
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:21 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> Codec for video content? I would not blame the website. A good place
> to start checking for who's to blame is at the W3C's Markup Validation
> Service:
> http://validator.w3.org/
>
> It's not 100%, but it is a great start.

That's a very good point. If you can tell the webmaster that a page doesn't
validate at w3.org, you don't always even need to utter the dreaded
word "Linux", you can just say something to the effect that "page
http://xxxx" doesn't work properly in some browsers, and according to
http://validator.w3.org/ it is not syntactically correct".
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:08 PM
Sylviane et Perry White
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Thanks again Derek, Nils and Dotan,
that was wery instructive.

To my question
> > Derek, do you mean a site will format the data differently for different
> > browsers, but if that site is tricked into beliving it is sending to
> > another browser, the result may be better?

Derek replied:
> Exactly.
(snip)
> I don't find identifying as IE - any version - terribly useful
> on most sites, because the script then starts trying to do things that no
> sane browser _can_ do.

Nils replied:
> Yes, while I don't always use the same number, I definitely use a
> nonexistant IE version number.

Some slight divergences above, or things I didn't fully understand.
I am not yet sure that the best thing to do is to change (once and for all)
the way my browsers identify themselves.
I conclude that if neither Konq nor Firefox work I can try that trick.


Dotan said:
(snip)
> http://validator.w3.org/
I appreciate that you are fighting for a cause (or many), and offered your
help for solving cases.
In spite of my laziness I will try to join you on this cause.
Unless I am overburdened by the other causes I am also fighting for, or by
trivial things, I will try to keep an eye on non compiant sites and see if I
can act, with or without your help.


Flagging your mails as important and saving them in a "non volatile" folder.

Greetings Perry


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Old 11-29-2007, 05:24 PM
Donn
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

> I am not yet sure that the best thing to do is to change (once and for
> all) the way my browsers identify themselves.
> I conclude that if neither Konq nor Firefox work I can try that trick.
>
An idea:
If you use Firefox, you can simultaneously use many "profiles" that can each
have totally different settings. Actually, I am not sure if settings like
browser identification will work this way, but you can try:

Hit Alt-F2 and type [firefox -a blah] without the brackets.

(There is a bug in the stock Firefox as of Gutsy (at least) and the usual
command is [firefox -ProfileManager] so adjust as you need.)

Use the dialogue that opens to add a new profile. Then Start that profile. Go
change the settings as you need for that profile and test it out.
(In future run FF with the -a blah to get the choice dialogue.)

You *should* be able to use that new profile for those few sites that just
plain suck.

HTH
d

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Old 11-29-2007, 05:47 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Donn wrote:

>> I am not yet sure that the best thing to do is to change (once and for
>> all) the way my browsers identify themselves.
>> I conclude that if neither Konq nor Firefox work I can try that trick.
>>
> An idea:
> If you use Firefox, you can simultaneously use many "profiles" that can
> each have totally different settings. Actually, I am not sure if settings
> like browser identification will work this way, but you can try:

In Konqueror, it's easier. When you hit a site that doesn't work, you just
click on the Toad's rear-end icon, and tell it what to identify as. You
can make that apply to the specific page, or to all pages at that site
(well, that's what it says, but it really looks to me as if it only works
at the domain level - which seems sufficient, anyway). Or you can go
deeper into the configuration, where you can do things like making all or
some subdomains behave the same way.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:52 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Sylviane et Perry White wrote:
> Nils replied:
> > Yes, while I don't always use the same number, I definitely use a
> > nonexistant IE version number.
>
> Some slight divergences above, or things I didn't fully understand.
> I am not yet sure that the best thing to do is to change (once and for
> all) the way my browsers identify themselves.
> I conclude that if neither Konq nor Firefox work I can try that trick.

Well, my standard browser identification is of course Konqueror. However,
if I find a site which really behaves mad and only gives an error
message, I change the setting for this site alone. BTW: I think with
Konqueror itself you can only use existing IE versions - I use WWWOFFLE
for it. Looking at the relevant config file, it seems to be >1 year ago
that I used that trick. Maybe today most webmasters have found out that
there are other browsers on the market. Furthermore, Dotans approach of
complaining to the webmasters is probably the best way to eliminate those
discriminating sites.


Nils

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Old 11-29-2007, 07:05 PM
Donn
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

> deeper into the configuration, where you can do things like making all or
> some subdomains behave the same way.
Cool, I didn't know that.

d

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Old 11-30-2007, 12:52 AM
Anton Rolls
 
Default Feeling like a 2nd class citizen

Hi Tim,

Tipton, Timothy wrote:
>> Oops, I'm on 32-bit and missed that the original poster's machine
>> is 64-bit. I don't know how well Firefox for Windows runs on 64-bit.
>
> What exactly is the purpose of running Firefox for windows on Linux? Am
> I missing something here?
>
> Thanks,
> Tim

I'm still fairly newish to linux, having migrated from Windows over
the last six months. So I'm still trying different things.
I think I had the false impression that Flash plugin wouldn't work on
linux. Maybe I heard that Shockwave wouldn't work, or I was just trying
to avoid installing a non open source version and sort of blocked
it out of mind. I tried Gnash recently, but it seems quite buggy still.
Firefox in Wine seems like a good place to put the proprietary Flash
plugin, anyway.

Regards,

Anton.

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