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Old 02-01-2008, 09:12 PM
Douglas McClendon
 
Default Minimal systems

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:17:55 -0600
Douglas McClendon <dmc.fedora@filteredperception.org> wrote:

yes please. Rationalizing and well-defining @core and @base sounds
great to me I mean, if there is a rational reason why selinux

policy should be explicitly listed in those, then fine, but I haven't
heard the reason yet, just the fact.


Fedora == SELinux in use. If you don't want SELinux, you're going to
have to make something that isn't Fedora.


Is that policy driven by technical merit, or politics? Is there any
chance that that policy could be softened to


( Fedora + @base ) == "SELinux in use"

with the explicit rationalization that people using a fedora system
generated by a kickstart with 'packages --no-base' really know what they
are getting themselves into, and in general are doing so because they
want to make all decisions for themselves about which packages to
explicitly install which aren't required to run a useful minimal system?


Didn't think so...

-dmc

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Old 02-01-2008, 09:26 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Minimal systems

Gary Thomas wrote:

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:21:45 -0700
Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com> wrote:


Which, I guess, is *always* included, specified or not?

Any harm in removing this from the 'comps' file? I have no
use nor desire ever for selinux on this platform.


Rather, remove it from /your/ comps file, not the upstream one in
Fedora CVS (:


No worries - I don't have Fedora CVS access :-)


rpm --erase in %post might be easier.


--

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John

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Old 02-01-2008, 09:34 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Minimal systems

Jeremy Katz wrote:

On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:27 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 03:17:55PM -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote:

With those lists in hand, we could work on rationalizing @core and
@base (because they're not really well-defined) and perhaps collapse
them into one group.
yes please. Rationalizing and well-defining @core and @base sounds
great to me I mean, if there is a rational reason why selinux policy
should be explicitly listed in those, then fine, but I haven't heard the
reason yet, just the fact.

I think a rational split is:


You have the right idea, but Base and Core backwards. And really,


and right there is part of the problem.

The absolute minimum maintainable set should be "minimum."

It needs a text editor, and the one history tells us should be there is
vi (not that johnny-come-lately nano that some install).


I don't care whether the practical minimum is "base" or "core," and I
think I'm not alone in being unable to see the difference between the terms.





--

Cheers
John

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Old 02-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Douglas McClendon
 
Default Minimal systems

John Summerfield wrote:

Jeremy Katz wrote:



You have the right idea, but Base and Core backwards. And really,


and right there is part of the problem.

The absolute minimum maintainable set should be "minimum."

It needs a text editor, and the one history tells us should be there is
vi (not that johnny-come-lately nano that some install).


*cough* ed *cough*

-dmc




I don't care whether the practical minimum is "base" or "core," and I
think I'm not alone in being unable to see the difference between the
terms.







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Old 02-01-2008, 09:55 PM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default Minimal systems

On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 07:34 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:
> Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:27 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
> >> On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 03:17:55PM -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote:
> >>>> With those lists in hand, we could work on rationalizing @core and
> >>>> @base (because they're not really well-defined) and perhaps collapse
> >>>> them into one group.
> >>> yes please. Rationalizing and well-defining @core and @base sounds
> >>> great to me I mean, if there is a rational reason why selinux policy
> >>> should be explicitly listed in those, then fine, but I haven't heard the
> >>> reason yet, just the fact.
> >> I think a rational split is:
> >
> > You have the right idea, but Base and Core backwards. And really,
>
> and right there is part of the problem.
>
> The absolute minimum maintainable set should be "minimum."
>
> It needs a text editor, and the one history tells us should be there is
> vi (not that johnny-come-lately nano that some install).
>
> I don't care whether the practical minimum is "base" or "core," and I
> think I'm not alone in being unable to see the difference between the terms.

The problem is that the word "minimum" is so heavily loaded (and
differently loaded) that if you use it, you make no one happy. So, you
pick different terms so that people can have the "minimum" they are
looking for

Jeremy

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Old 02-01-2008, 10:11 PM
Douglas McClendon
 
Default Minimal systems

Jeremy Katz wrote:

On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 07:34 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:



The absolute minimum maintainable set should be "minimum."

It needs a text editor, and the one history tells us should be there is
vi (not that johnny-come-lately nano that some install).


I don't care whether the practical minimum is "base" or "core," and I
think I'm not alone in being unable to see the difference between the terms.


The problem is that the word "minimum" is so heavily loaded (and
differently loaded) that if you use it, you make no one happy. So, you
pick different terms so that people can have the "minimum" they are
looking for


I was both joking, and making your point about this, regarding ed vs vi.

But a real question is this- Can the parsing of the package list be
improved so that the original intuitive attempt at the beginning of this
thread-


%packages
@base
-selinux-policy
-selinux-policy-targeted
-selinux-policy-mls
%end

would actually work?

Especially with all kinds of inherited/included kickstarts, can you
briefly explain (or point at url to documented explanation), why the
above doesn't work? Is it fodder for bugzilla?


If the above could get selinux-policy out (or lets call it X), *as well
as* any dependencies that X might have brought in which aren't required
by any other package, then I'd be pretty satisfied, compared to the
situation that seems to exist now.


-dmc

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Old 02-01-2008, 10:15 PM
John Summerfield
 
Default Minimal systems

Jeremy Katz wrote:

On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 07:34 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:




The problem is that the word "minimum" is so heavily loaded (and
differently loaded) that if you use it, you make no one happy. So, you
pick different terms so that people can have the "minimum" they are
looking for

Jeremy


So propose something better; it seems the existing names cause endless
confusion.


_I_ don't see that "minimum" is so confusing, if needs be it could be
further described as "nothing less can be maintained."


That would also be a good criterion to help on deciding what goes in.


--

Cheers
John

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Old 02-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Gary Thomas
 
Default Minimal systems

John Summerfield wrote:

Gary Thomas wrote:

Jesse Keating wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:21:45 -0700
Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com> wrote:


Which, I guess, is *always* included, specified or not?

Any harm in removing this from the 'comps' file? I have no
use nor desire ever for selinux on this platform.


Rather, remove it from /your/ comps file, not the upstream one in
Fedora CVS (:


No worries - I don't have Fedora CVS access :-)


rpm --erase in %post might be easier.


Not when installing selinux-policy-targeted on my box
takes 8+ hours :-( Without it, I can do an install in
just a few minutes.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
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MLB Associates | Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------

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Old 02-02-2008, 12:06 AM
Jeremy Katz
 
Default Minimal systems

On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 17:11 -0600, Douglas McClendon wrote:
> Jeremy Katz wrote:
> > On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 07:34 +0900, John Summerfield wrote:
> >> The absolute minimum maintainable set should be "minimum."
> >>
> >> It needs a text editor, and the one history tells us should be there is
> >> vi (not that johnny-come-lately nano that some install).
> >>
> >> I don't care whether the practical minimum is "base" or "core," and I
> >> think I'm not alone in being unable to see the difference between the terms.
> >
> > The problem is that the word "minimum" is so heavily loaded (and
> > differently loaded) that if you use it, you make no one happy. So, you
> > pick different terms so that people can have the "minimum" they are
> > looking for
>
> I was both joking, and making your point about this, regarding ed vs vi.
>
> But a real question is this- Can the parsing of the package list be
> improved so that the original intuitive attempt at the beginning of this
> thread-
>
> %packages
> @base
> -selinux-policy
> -selinux-policy-targeted
> -selinux-policy-mls
> %end
>
> would actually work?

It should be working -- I haven't tried it in anaconda in a while, but
it definitely was working in livecd-creator when I was poking at the
smallest installs back before the holiday. I'll try to fire up an
install later in the weekend and try. But right now, it's 8 pm on
Friday night and so I am going to enjoy the evening :-)

Jeremy

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Old 02-02-2008, 10:41 AM
John Summerfield
 
Default Minimal systems

Gary Thomas wrote:

John Summerfield wrote:

Gary Thomas wrote:




rpm --erase in %post might be easier.


Not when installing selinux-policy-targeted on my box
takes 8+ hours :-( Without it, I can do an install in
just a few minutes.



I _told_ you Fedora's not your best choice.

--

Cheers
John

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