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Old 01-21-2008, 01:38 AM
"Kelly L. Fulks"
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

Billie Walsh wrote:
> Probably going to make a few enemies here.
>
> First. Contrary to what some people believe, the Bible was not written
> by God. He did not sit down at his royal typewriter and pound it out.
> The Bible is very much a work of man. Different books were chosen for
> inclusion or exclusion by how certain people felt they were relevant.
>
> Second. The Old Testament is a translation of the Tora, sort of. Some
> things were left out and a few things were put in. The earliest books
> were handed down word of mouth for many generations before they were
> actually written down. Sometimes stories change as they are passed on.
> The whole thing is basically a history of the Israelites.
>
> Third. No part of the New Testament was written during, or immediately
> after, the life of Jesus. The oldest books were written down about
> eighty years after his death. Here again stories were passed down word
> of mouth. None of the writers had first hand knowledge of what they were
> writing. Many "stories" were chosen to not be included because certain
> people felt they did not portray Jesus in as favorable a light [ within
> their own belief - like the possibility that Jesus was married to Mary ]
> as they should.
>
> The Bible is written in "parables". Stories that tell something. Taking
> a "verse" out of the parable destroys the meaning of the verse. The
> entire parable must be read to gain the meaning of the parable.
>
> The best way to read, and understand, the "New Testament" is in the
> original Greek. Many meanings are lost in the translation to other
> languages. For instance - I forget how many right the top of my head
> but, Greek has/had MANY different words for "love". Each denoting the
> exact relationship with the person involved [ a father for his son, a
> man for his wife, a sister for her brother, etc. ]. ALL these words
> basically translate into "love" in most other languages but the
> relationship is lost in such a simple translation.
>
> Virtually none of the things written in The Bible are "new". Almost
> every idea held therein can be found in an earlier belief system.
>
> A good understanding of history is very important.
>

Let me say that this is way OT. I started not to reply to it, but I
finally convinced myself that you said a few things that are so far off
target, that I had to respond. However, I do not think that this
deserves further response on this list. I would be happy to correspond
with anyone privately on this topic, but I felt that the other side of
the argument needed to be stated.

First, I don't know anyone that would believe that God himself wrote the
books that we now call the Bible. However, many do believe that the
books are inspired by God and that he instructed the writer in what they
should write. You are correct in the fact that men selected what would
be included in what we call the Bible. But this was based on what the
early Christians had referenced and the traditions of what was written
when and by whom. The Old Testament has been set in its current
selection of books since before the time of Christ. The Pharisees and
Sadducees endorsed those books and the Rabbis used them for their teachings.

Second, Tora is a Japanese word which means tiger. Tora, Tora, Tora was
the words used to signal the Japanese Navy to push the attack on Pearl
Harbor on Dec. 7, 1942. The Torah is the Hebrew books of history
written by Moses. They are the first five books of our current Old
Testament, so obviously things have been added. That makes it a little
hard for anything to have been left out of the Torah. I am not sure
what you mean by anything having been left out.

Third, I don't know of anyone that would argue the point of nothing in
the New Testament being written during the life of Jesus. The first
books were likely written about 20 years after his death. However, your
80 year estimate is likely way off. Since many of the books of the New
Testament were letters written by the Apostle Paul and since he was
killed in about A.D. 67, it is likely that most of the books were
written before that. It is highly unlikely that he wrote these letters
after his death. The last books written were written by the Apostle
John who died around A.D. 100, so that is still less than 70 years after
the death of Jesus.

It is also not true that the Bible was written in Parables. There are
many Parables in the first four books of the New Testament. Christ used
the Parables to teach abstract lessons to the Jews as well as his
disciples. It was not for them to completely understand until after his
death and Parables provided a mechanism for these lessons. However,
when we read those parables and know the history including his death, we
can understand them. Outside of these four books, which are called the
Gospels, there are few Parables in the Bible.

I won't disagree with you that understanding history is important to
understanding the Bible. History confirms so many of the prophesies in
the Bible. Archeology has proven so many of the facts in the Bible. If
you understand these things, it is much easier to understand the
chronology of the Bible and its place in history.

I will somewhat disagree with you on reading in Greek. However, I will
agree that having a tool (Strong's Concordance) handy to help in
understanding the meaning of words is important. Using the QT library
without having a QT reference handy isn't very smart either. You are
very correct on the word love. But using a good tool to help
understand, will eliminate any misunderstanding that might be introduced
with the translation into English.

--
Kelly L. Fulks
Home Account
near Huntsville, AL

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Old 01-21-2008, 06:24 AM
Donn
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

> History confirms so many of the prophesies in
> the Bible.
Expect little details like Exodus.

d
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:47 AM
Ignazio Palmisano
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

Kelly L. Fulks wrote:
> Billie Walsh wrote:
>> Probably going to make a few enemies here.
[snip]
>> Third. No part of the New Testament was written during, or immediately
>> after, the life of Jesus. The oldest books were written down about
>> eighty years after his death. Here again stories were passed down word
>> of mouth. None of the writers had first hand knowledge of what they were
>> writing.

[snip]

> Third, I don't know of anyone that would argue the point of nothing in
> the New Testament being written during the life of Jesus. The first
> books were likely written about 20 years after his death. However, your
> 80 year estimate is likely way off. Since many of the books of the New
> Testament were letters written by the Apostle Paul and since he was
> killed in about A.D. 67, it is likely that most of the books were
> written before that. It is highly unlikely that he wrote these letters
> after his death. The last books written were written by the Apostle
> John who died around A.D. 100, so that is still less than 70 years after
> the death of Jesus.

The most recent book I read places the writings of all gospels and
various letters between 50 dc and 120 dc. Case in point, biblists of
different religions (even catholics, lol) agree that none of the gospels
have been written by the apostles themselves, and John's especially is
the one which shows signs of additions and rewritings.

BTW, AD 100? from AD 33? if he was 20 when Jesus was alive, that would
mean he was over 90 when he died. Back then the average lifespan of a
civus romanus was about 40 years, isn't that stretching it a bit?

OT again
I.


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Old 01-21-2008, 12:59 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

Kelly L. Fulks wrote:

> Billie Walsh wrote:
>> Probably going to make a few enemies here.

Probably. It really _isn't_ necessary to discuss this on an Ubuntu list.

>> Third. No part of the New Testament was written during, or immediately
>> after, the life of Jesus. The oldest books were written down about
>> eighty years after his death.
...
>> The best way to read, and understand, the "New Testament" is in the
>> original Greek.
...
> Let me say that this is way OT. I started not to reply to it, but I
> finally convinced myself that you said a few things that are so far off
> target, that I had to respond.

Indeed

> However, I do not think that this
> deserves further response on this list.

Hey, it's a thread - everybody gets their say!

> Third, I don't know of anyone that would argue the point of nothing in
> the New Testament being written during the life of Jesus. The first
> books were likely written about 20 years after his death. However, your
> 80 year estimate is likely way off. Since many of the books of the New
> Testament were letters written by the Apostle Paul and since he was
> killed in about A.D. 67, it is likely that most of the books were
> written before that.

The Gospels were written later, but iirc the first of those probably 30
years after Jesus' death.

> It is highly unlikely that he wrote these letters
> after his death. The last books written were written by the Apostle
> John who died around A.D. 100, so that is still less than 70 years after
> the death of Jesus.

That's highly arguable. The Gospel and Revelation could be well after
100AD. I was taught that the Gospel is from c. 130AD, but admittedly that
was many years ago and history, surprisingly, changes...

> I won't disagree with you that understanding history is important to
> understanding the Bible. History confirms so many of the prophesies in
> the Bible.

Ack!!! Name one - and prove that the so-called prophecy actually referred
to what you want it to! Prophecy is a wonderful thing, because if it's not
so obscure that anything could be interpreted from it, well, history's very
long and sooner or later something will happen that matches the prophecy.
cf. the event that caused the whole New Testament. Jesus may be the
Messiah prophecied by Isaiah - he meets the criteria, but so could any
descendant of David, and the Jews explicitly don't accept that he was the
fulfilment of the prophecy.

> I will somewhat disagree with you on reading in Greek.

Especially since some of the earliest texts were Aramaic...

> Using the QT library
> without having a QT reference handy isn't very smart either.

Hey!! No fair using an on-topic reference! (Not that I necessarily agree -
references are handy, they're not always definitive).
--
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:02 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

Donn wrote:

>> History confirms so many of the prophesies in
>> the Bible.
> Expect little details like Exodus.
>
Exodus, true or not (it must be - I saw Charlton Heston part the Red Sea!)
is not a work of prophecy. The prophets come _after_ the "pentateuch".
--
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:41 PM
"Brad De Vries"
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

On Jan 20, 2008 1:55 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
> Probably going to make a few enemies here.
>
> First. Contrary to what some people believe, the Bible was not written
> by God.
...
>

Billie, it's clear that you are simply trolling here and I won't bite
but I will simply say that you are in my prayers.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart so that you can
feel the love, compassion, and forgiveness from the One who created
you. I also pray that you'll find the rest you're seeking in the
loving arms of God the Father.

Brad.

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Old 01-21-2008, 01:47 PM
Martin Laberge
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

>
> The Gospels were written later, but iirc the first of those probably 30
> years after Jesus' death.
>
> > It is highly unlikely that he wrote these letters
> > after his death. The last books written were written by the Apostle
> > John who died around A.D. 100, so that is still less than 70 years after
> > the death of Jesus.
>
> That's highly arguable. The Gospel and Revelation could be well after
> 100AD. I was taught that the Gospel is from c. 130AD, but admittedly that
> was many years ago and history, surprisingly, changes...
>
> > I won't disagree with you that understanding history is important to
> > understanding the Bible. History confirms so many of the prophesies in
> > the Bible.
>
> Ack!!! Name one - and prove that the so-called prophecy actually referred
> to what you want it to! Prophecy is a wonderful thing, because if it's not
> so obscure that anything could be interpreted from it, well, history's very
> long and sooner or later something will happen that matches the prophecy.
> cf. the event that caused the whole New Testament. Jesus may be the
> Messiah prophecied by Isaiah - he meets the criteria, but so could any
> descendant of David, and the Jews explicitly don't accept that he was the
> fulfilment of the prophecy.
>

Then the prophecy, about the resurection of jesus 2000 years later,
may have been true.

Maybe Jesus was resurected and is now called Jesus Torvalds,
and just disguised his name to stay incognito.

He teach us to share, help, care for others, build a community,
all in all, the same teachings than his predecessor.

We all pray him for new benefits in our lifes, and help
others to come to our religion, by converting them
from the Evil($) to the Good(GPL).

It seems pretty much the same to me.
:-)


--
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mlsoft@videotron.ca
(418) 575-2945


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Old 01-21-2008, 01:48 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

On 21/01/2008, Brad De Vries <devriesbj@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2008 1:55 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
> > Probably going to make a few enemies here.
> >
> > First. Contrary to what some people believe, the Bible was not written
> > by God.
>
> Billie, it's clear that you are simply trolling here and I won't bite
> but I will simply say that you are in my prayers.
>
> I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart so that you can
> feel the love, compassion, and forgiveness from the One who created
> you.

A heart attack?

> I also pray that you'll find the rest you're seeking in the
> loving arms of God the Father.

And die?

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Ant Cunningham
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

On 1/21/08 10:41 AM, "Donn" <donn.ingle@gmail.com> wrote:

> Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW
>

Werd b00ty ;-)



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Old 01-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Donn
 
Default OT - Understanding "The Bible"

> I pray that the Holy Spirit will soften your heart so that you can
> feel the love, compassion, and forgiveness from the One who created
> you.
Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW

d



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well, when good reasons are actually available."
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