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Old 06-25-2010, 03:39 AM
Reinhold Rumberger
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Friday 25 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 22:18 +0200, Reinhold Rumberger wrote:
> > On Thursday 24 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 20:45 +0100, Mark Greenwood wrote:
> > > > You'll find it mostly works, but KDE apps will all use ALSA
> > > > routing to talk to pulseaudio, or will not produce any audio
> > > > at all. This problem is fixed in Maverick, but is unlikely
> > > > to be fixed in Lucid.
> > > >
> > > > Basically, pulseaudio under Kubuntu 10.04 is not supported,
> > > > and does not work properly.
> > >
> > > I thought Lucid was LTS?? Why wouldn't it be "fixed"?
> > > <sighs> Ric
> >
> > Why would they fix something they don't support?
>
> Forgive me for being dense, but the comment made which I was
> replying to was that it would "be fixed in Maverick", which I
> assume is the next release?? Ergo, would it not be fixed for the
> LTS release which is Lucid?

It's not supported in Lucid, so it's unlikely to be fixed there,
especially since it is an LTS release. Attempting to fix it would
introduce more instability.
It is, apparently, supported in Maverick, so I'd expect it to be
fixed there.

> One thing is for sure, you cannot remove all of the pulseaudio
> packages without major breakage to the system, so that leads me
> to believe that there is a measure of support for pulse within
> the Kubuntu scheme of things, especially if you cannot remove it.

I can remove everything but two libraries that kmix depends on, and
they don't seem to interfere with anything...

> It would suit me just fine to remove it completely and rely on
> alsa totally. But, as I just mentioned, that apparently is not
> the case. Anyone else want some of this? I suggest it be totally
> fixed or totally removed. Let's hear it from the choir. Ric

There shouldn't be a problem with removing the sound daemon, and
that's the active part. Remove that, and your applications will be
forced to use alsa or whatever. If you can't remove it, I'd like to
know the package that depends on PA in such a way that it can't be
removed...

--Reinhold

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Old 06-25-2010, 06:08 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 05:39 +0200, Reinhold Rumberger wrote:
> On Friday 25 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> > On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 22:18 +0200, Reinhold Rumberger wrote:
> > > On Thursday 24 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2010-06-24 at 20:45 +0100, Mark Greenwood wrote:
> > > > > You'll find it mostly works, but KDE apps will all use ALSA
> > > > > routing to talk to pulseaudio, or will not produce any audio
> > > > > at all. This problem is fixed in Maverick, but is unlikely
> > > > > to be fixed in Lucid.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically, pulseaudio under Kubuntu 10.04 is not supported,
> > > > > and does not work properly.
> > > >
> > > > I thought Lucid was LTS?? Why wouldn't it be "fixed"?
> > > > <sighs> Ric
> > >
> > > Why would they fix something they don't support?
> >
> > Forgive me for being dense, but the comment made which I was
> > replying to was that it would "be fixed in Maverick", which I
> > assume is the next release?? Ergo, would it not be fixed for the
> > LTS release which is Lucid?
>
> It's not supported in Lucid, so it's unlikely to be fixed there,
> especially since it is an LTS release. Attempting to fix it would
> introduce more instability.
> It is, apparently, supported in Maverick, so I'd expect it to be
> fixed there.
>
> > One thing is for sure, you cannot remove all of the pulseaudio
> > packages without major breakage to the system, so that leads me
> > to believe that there is a measure of support for pulse within
> > the Kubuntu scheme of things, especially if you cannot remove it.
>
> I can remove everything but two libraries that kmix depends on, and
> they don't seem to interfere with anything...
>
> > It would suit me just fine to remove it completely and rely on
> > alsa totally. But, as I just mentioned, that apparently is not
> > the case. Anyone else want some of this? I suggest it be totally
> > fixed or totally removed. Let's hear it from the choir. Ric
>
> There shouldn't be a problem with removing the sound daemon, and
> that's the active part. Remove that, and your applications will be
> forced to use alsa or whatever. If you can't remove it, I'd like to
> know the package that depends on PA in such a way that it can't be
> removed...

Removing libpulse0 would also remove a pile of KDE packages. Why would
akonadi-kde-resource-googledata depend on libpulse0? Or Kaddressbook? I
really want to know. I've been using Linux since the days of the 11
floppy install. When I see such humongous depends, I have to believe
that someone, who knows better than me, has ordained that the package
remain for some reason. Then the package causes breakages and simple
minded folks like me go nutz.

Ok, so a lot of us still have to select audio sources from time to time.
asoundconf.gtk used to do that perfectly, until a function was removed
from the alsa utils package during the karmic beta period. God help me,
I'm 60 and forget what was removed, but it being removed crippled that
perfect little app and I groused about it here, then.

To me and what a quick google search told me, LTS means support for 3
years. What I'm reading here is that within less than 6 months pulse
issues with KDE will be remedied, but to get those remedies one would
have to abandon LTS security and upgrade to a version supported far
less? It boggles my mind that it would be expected for users to accept
that. Maybe I should just STFU, but I really want STABLE for development
work and not live the life of the perpetual beta tester, like the Fedora
Users are. Ric



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Old 06-25-2010, 05:26 PM
Reinhold Rumberger
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Friday 25 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 05:39 +0200, Reinhold Rumberger wrote:
> > On Friday 25 June 2010, Ric Moore wrote:
> > > Forgive me for being dense, but the comment made which I was
> > > replying to was that it would "be fixed in Maverick", which I
> > > assume is the next release?? Ergo, would it not be fixed for
> > > the LTS release which is Lucid?
> >
> > It's not supported in Lucid, so it's unlikely to be fixed there,
> > especially since it is an LTS release. Attempting to fix it
> > would introduce more instability.
> > It is, apparently, supported in Maverick, so I'd expect it to be
> > fixed there.
> >
> > > One thing is for sure, you cannot remove all of the pulseaudio
> > > packages without major breakage to the system, so that leads
> > > me to believe that there is a measure of support for pulse
> > > within the Kubuntu scheme of things, especially if you cannot
> > > remove it.
> >
> > I can remove everything but two libraries that kmix depends on,
> > and they don't seem to interfere with anything...
> >
> > > It would suit me just fine to remove it completely and rely on
> > > alsa totally. But, as I just mentioned, that apparently is not
> > > the case. Anyone else want some of this? I suggest it be
> > > totally fixed or totally removed. Let's hear it from the
> > > choir. Ric
> >
> > There shouldn't be a problem with removing the sound daemon, and
> > that's the active part. Remove that, and your applications will
> > be forced to use alsa or whatever. If you can't remove it, I'd
> > like to know the package that depends on PA in such a way that
> > it can't be removed...
>
> Removing libpulse0 would also remove a pile of KDE packages.

I'm not talking about that lib. To be exact, if you had read my
previous mail properly, you might have noticed that I mentioned the
only component that matters is the server component...
Leaving that library just wastes some space and doesn't really do
anything else.

> Why
> would akonadi-kde-resource-googledata depend on libpulse0? Or
> Kaddressbook?

They don't. They indirectly depend on kmix, which in turn depends on
libpulse0 and libpulse-mainloop-glib0.

> I really want to know. I've been using Linux since
> the days of the 11 floppy install. When I see such humongous
> depends, I have to believe that someone, who knows better than
> me, has ordained that the package remain for some reason. Then
> the package causes breakages and simple minded folks like me go
> nutz.

Those two libs don't cause breakage. They're just sitting around
uselessly.

<snip>

> To me and what a quick google search told me, LTS means support
> for 3 years. What I'm reading here is that within less than 6
> months pulse issues with KDE will be remedied, but to get those
> remedies one would have to abandon LTS security and upgrade to a
> version supported far less? It boggles my mind that it would be
> expected for users to accept that. Maybe I should just STFU, but
> I really want STABLE for development work and not live the life
> of the perpetual beta tester, like the Fedora Users are. Ric

You pretty much have two choices:
a) Use Lucid the LTS and forget about pulse.
b) Use Maverick and be able to use pulse.

If you absolutely need pulse you're going to have to go with option
b, otherwise there is nothing stopping you from using Lucid with
alsa.

--Reinhold

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Old 06-26-2010, 02:12 AM
Clay Weber
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Friday, June 25, 2010 02:08:43 am Ric Moore wrote:
> Removing libpulse0 would also remove a pile of KDE packages. Why would
> akonadi-kde-resource-googledata depend on libpulse0? Or Kaddressbook? I
> really want to know. I've been using Linux since the days of the 11
> floppy install. When I see such humongous depends, I have to believe
> that someone, who knows better than me, has ordained that the package
> remain for some reason. Then the package causes breakages and simple
> minded folks like me go nutz.

See my previous email on the
whats and whys of the existence of the PA *library* files installed in Kubuntu.

> Ok, so a lot of us still have to select audio sources from time to time.
> asoundconf.gtk used to do that perfectly, until a function was removed
> from the alsa utils package during the karmic beta period. God help me,
> I'm 60 and forget what was removed, but it being removed crippled that
> perfect little app and I groused about it here, then.
>
> To me and what a quick google search told me, LTS means support for 3
> years.

Note that LTS means 3 years of *security* updates to the versions of software
currently installed - no *new* software versions for the most part, though
small 'point' releases of KDE usually make it into -Updates, like 3.5.10 did
in Hardy. I see 4.4.4 making it there for Lucid, unless there is a 4.4.5. But
you won't see new kernel/driver versions or KDE 4.5.x.

> What I'm reading here is that within less than 6 months pulse
> issues with KDE will be remedied, but to get those remedies one would
> have to abandon LTS security and upgrade to a version supported far
> less?
>

18 months support isn't too short a time, I would think.

> It boggles my mind that it would be expected for users to accept
> that. Maybe I should just STFU, but I really want STABLE for development
> work and not live the life of the perpetual beta tester, like the Fedora
> Users are. Ric

Well, there is always Debian stable, Red Hat/CentOS, and SLED.......


--
Clay Weber
http://kubuntuforums.net
http://flyballmaine.com
http://emacdogsports.com

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Old 06-26-2010, 08:04 AM
Ric Moore
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 22:12 -0400, Clay Weber wrote:
> On Friday, June 25, 2010 02:08:43 am Ric Moore wrote:

> > What I'm reading here is that within less than 6 months pulse
> > issues with KDE will be remedied, but to get those remedies one would
> > have to abandon LTS security and upgrade to a version supported far
> > less?
> >
>
> 18 months support isn't too short a time, I would think.
>
> > It boggles my mind that it would be expected for users to accept
> > that. Maybe I should just STFU, but I really want STABLE for development
> > work and not live the life of the perpetual beta tester, like the Fedora
> > Users are. Ric
>
> Well, there is always Debian stable, Red Hat/CentOS, and SLED.......

That is never a good reply, Clay. Suggesting that a user just leave if
they are not happy, when they are posting their concerns over decisions
that affect their personal computer's performance and overall user
experience.

We've had some truly good intelligent users leave Kubuntu after such
comments, when they posted their problems with this project's decisions
and/or overzealous moderators. Then someone later posts with the
question "Why are people leaving Kubuntu?"

I've raised ten kinds of hell, concerning pulse, in the past. Installing
Ubuntu/Gnome/Lucid first, then installing the KDE desktop, makes pulse
work and work reliably for me, for the very first time. I'm actually
getting some true benefit from it. Ego, there is something broken in the
way Kubuntu doesn't install it, and adding it later remains broken?? If
I knew, I'd be a developer, so I ask questions and raise points to
consider. It's called "Assertiveness"... which is considered to be a
good healthy thing.

But, being a life long Geek, I had to study and learn it. Suggesting
someone just pack up and leave is "Withdrawn", meaning we have no
further relationship nor goals to share. Not healthy. "Compromise" is
the meeting in the middle ground between relationship value and goals.
If I am willing to accept a small loss of my personal goals, to allow
you to have your goals, then we are at compromise, which is a good place
to me.

MY goal is a stable sound system, one that allows me to use my different
inputs/outputs conveniently. If our prison project takes off, I'm
looking at 3 million potential new users. I think they would prefer to
use KDE, as it seems more user friendly, to me, than Gnome. But, it
would be a pure-eyed bitch to re-install 3 million computers every 6
months. That is why I'd like to see whatever is aggravating in KDE
fixed, while in the LTS version Lucid. I'm just seeking compromise,
especially after the comment was made that it would be fixed anyway.
Thanks, Ric



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Old 06-26-2010, 03:36 PM
Clay Weber
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On Saturday, June 26, 2010 04:04:14 am Ric Moore wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 22:12 -0400, Clay Weber wrote:
> > On Friday, June 25, 2010 02:08:43 am Ric Moore wrote:
> > > What I'm reading here is that within less than 6 months pulse
> > > issues with KDE will be remedied, but to get those remedies one would
> > > have to abandon LTS security and upgrade to a version supported far
> > > less?
> >
> > 18 months support isn't too short a time, I would think.
> >
> > > It boggles my mind that it would be expected for users to accept
> > > that. Maybe I should just STFU, but I really want STABLE for
> > > development work and not live the life of the perpetual beta tester,
> > > like the Fedora Users are. Ric
> >
> > Well, there is always Debian stable, Red Hat/CentOS, and SLED.......
>
> That is never a good reply, Clay. Suggesting that a user just leave if
> they are not happy, when they are posting their concerns over decisions
> that affect their personal computer's performance and overall user
> experience.

I am sorry, as I did not intend to say you should to leave Kubuntu, just that,
for your development work for which you stated:

"Maybe I should just STFU, but I really want STABLE for
development work and not live the life of the perpetual beta tester, like
the Fedora Users are",

that there are other options that developers can use. Suggesting using another
distro does NOT mean giving up the one you are using as there is always dual-
booting and virtual machines. My mistake was in taking for granted these
options. For this I do apologize.


This list has grown from around 150 subscribers to over 1300, so I do not
believe as many people are leaving Kubuntu as we might think.

--
Clay Weber
http://kubuntuforums.net
http://flyballmaine.com
http://emacdogsports.com

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Old 06-27-2010, 08:57 AM
Brian Wootton
 
Default Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4

On 26/06/10 15:46, kubuntu-users-request@lists.ubuntu.com wrote:
> Proper PulseAudio installation for KUbuntu 10.4
Thank you Mark, your clear exposition very much
appreciated. I thought I had tried just about every-
thing in kmix, but I shall certainly persevere further
with it. I do have Mandriva, I'm glad to see you
don't prefer the competition. :-)
brian

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