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Old 01-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Billie Walsh
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>> Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Billie Walsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sylviane et Perry White wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday 17 January 2008 16:24, Wulfy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By synecdoche[0], KDE 4.0 *is* KDE4... to say it's not KDE4 implies
>>>>>>> it's not even *part* of KDE4, which is patently false...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well... I'm not mankind and that implies I'm not even part of it,
>>>>>> doesn't it? The OP just meant you can't juge a set from one of its
>>>>>> parts.
>>>>>>
>>>> Er, no. You are not _all_ mankind, yet it's perfectly acceptable to say
>>>> that you _are_ mankind (odd, yes; archaic, certainly; but still correct).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> However, as there are no other parts at this time, KDE 4.0.0 would the
>>>>> "whole" of KDE4. Therefore KDE 4.0.0 = KDE4 and KDE4 = KDE 4.0.0 .
>>>>>
>>>> Impeccable logic :-)
>>>>
>>> Unfortunately it is wrong a container is not equal to the things it
>>> contains, even if it only contains one; the only exception being a
>>> container which contains itself.
>>>
>>>
>> Not buying it. KDE 4 isn't a container. At this time, it _is_ KDE 4.0.0.
>>
>
>
> from what I've read that's what the developers mean when they refer
> to KDE4, a series of software products (container, class, series,
> category... change logic name change the name of the thing, but it's
> always the same and it's a set). On the other hand, I think for many out
> here KDE4 refers to the most recent version of KDE (so that we will call
> KDE4 KDE 4.4.4, when it will be around), in which case KDE4 is KDE 4.0.0
> no one is wrong or right in this case, the trouble is using the same
> name meaning different things.
>
> I.
>
>
>
Isn't language, and playing with words, fun.

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Old 01-18-2008, 03:07 PM
Billie Walsh
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
> Wulfy wrote:
>
>> Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
>>
>>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Billie Walsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> However, as there are no other parts at this time, KDE 4.0.0 would the
>>>>> "whole" of KDE4. Therefore KDE 4.0.0 = KDE4 and KDE4 = KDE 4.0.0 .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Impeccable logic :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Unfortunately it is wrong a container is not equal to the things it
>>> contains, even if it only contains one; the only exception being a
>>> container which contains itself.
>>>
>> However, there is nothing outside of KDE4.0 that is KDE4, therefore KDE
>> 4.0 contains KDE4 as much as KDE4 contains KDE 4.0 (at the moment).
>> Therefore the container contains the container (both ways!) so they are
>> equal! :@
>>
>> [I think ;@D ]
>>
>> /me wanders off muttering about convoluted logic.......
>>
>>
>
> /me been wandering around something similar long time ago...
>
> KDE 4.0.0 is a piece of software and it is a container of pieces of
> software, which is the same kind of KDE4... but then the set of all
> possible sets is contained in itself? Can't remember which famous
> mathematician had a hard time defining this problem, I think it was
> about first and second order logic, and in the end if you can put a
> container in itself then the logical results take a while to be
> computed... like forever
>
> /me feels off topic and in need of a coffee, got a headache because of
> these containers...
> I.
>
>
Actually it's very simple.

At this point in time KDE 4.0.0 is the whole "set" of KDE4. Therefore it
IS KDE4. When KDE 4.0.1 comes out KDE 4.0.0 will no longer be the whole
"set" of KDE4. SO at that time KDE 4.0.0 will no longer be KDE4. KDE4
will be the container for the whole set of KDE 4.0.0 and KDE 4.0.1, and
so on until KDE5 comes into being. Then the process starts over all over
again.

I also understand what he was trying to say. That KDE 4.0.0 is not what
KDE4 will be. BUT, words can be funny sometimes. You have to be careful
how something is said because things can be "twisted" and meanings
become "different".

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Old 01-18-2008, 07:30 PM
Sylviane et Perry White
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

On Friday 18 January 2008 11:40, Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
>
> /me been wandering around something similar long time ago...
>
> KDE 4.0.0 is a piece of software and it is a container of pieces of
> software, which is the same kind of KDE4... but then the set of all
> possible sets is contained in itself? Can't remember which famous
> mathematician had a hard time defining this problem, I think it was
> about first and second order logic, and in the end if you can put a
> container in itself then the logical results take a while to be
> computed... like forever
>
> /me feels off topic and in need of a coffee, got a headache because of
> these containers...
> I.
>
> --
> Ignazio Palmisano

Thanks Ignazio,

We are getting out of topic here but any mathematician will smile at he
"Impeccable logic".
If a set has only one element the set is the same as the element, right?
What about a classroom with only one student, so class 3B=Eric, and you could
add other students into class 3B or into Eric. _Ouch! ;O)

About sets not containing themselves look up "Russell's Paradox"
(*) see at bottom

Derek said:
> Not buying it. KDE 4 isn't a container. At this time, it _is_ KDE 4.0.0.
(that above makes me uncomfortable) ^--------------^
Well, perhaps we should accept the fact that in common language we use words
that are not understood/defined-yet. The definition of some terms may come or
change with usage. Yet patterns concerning the "decimal" notation of versions
and revisions has already been established long ago and we all expect that
version X.0.0 will be folloved by something; should the definition of the
version change, from not-container to container, "at this time", when a new
revision is added?

Billie added:
> Isn't language, and playing with words, fun.
I second that.


(*)
Russel's paradox
It might be assumed that, for any formal criterion, a set exists whose members
are those objects (and only those objects) that satisfy the criterion; but
this assumption is disproved by a set containing exactly the sets that are
not members of themselves. If such a set qualifies as a member of itself, it
would contradict its own definition as a set containing sets that are not
members of themselves. On the other hand, if such a set is not a member of
itself, it would qualify as a member of itself by the same definition. This
contradiction is Russell's paradox.


Cheers Perry


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Old 01-18-2008, 11:11 PM
David McGlone
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

On Friday 18 January 2008 11:07:20 am Billie Walsh wrote:
> Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
> > Wulfy wrote:
> >> Ignazio Palmisano wrote:
> >>> Derek Broughton wrote:
> >>>> Billie Walsh wrote:

> I also understand what he was trying to say. That KDE 4.0.0 is not what
> KDE4 will be. BUT, words can be funny sometimes. You have to be careful
> how something is said because things can be "twisted" and meanings
> become "different".

Welcome to the English language ;-)


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Old 01-19-2008, 05:33 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

Sylviane et Perry White wrote:

> We are getting out of topic here but any mathematician will smile at he
> "Impeccable logic".

Well, I am one...

> If a set has only one element the set is the same as the element, right?

No. I'm arguing that KDE 4 is not a set at all.

> Derek said:
>> Not buying it. KDE 4 isn't a container. At this time, it _is_ KDE
>> 4.0.0.
> (that above makes me uncomfortable) ^--------------^
> Well, perhaps we should accept the fact that in common language we use
> words that are not understood/defined-yet. The definition of some terms
> may come or change with usage. Yet patterns concerning the "decimal"
> notation of versions and revisions has already been established long ago
> and we all expect that version X.0.0 will be folloved by something; should
> the definition of the version change, from not-container to container, "at
> this time", when a new revision is added?

Not at all. KDE 4 is a desktop environment. It is synonymous (that's
English, not Math) with KDE 4.0.0. But in another sense, yes, it _will_
change with time. It's not a piece of pure Math. It's a computer
application, it evolves - it's closer to Biology than Math. There will
come a time when there's a KDE 4.1 and a KDE 4.0, then you might speak of
KDE4 as a "set", but only with as much authority as you could talk of Homo
Sapiens as a member of the set of Primates (yes, I guess there is such a
set, but it isn't very meaningful in the mathematical world).
--
derek


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Old 01-20-2008, 06:55 AM
"John Jeleaskov"
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

I*fink you right about kde 4. When i try it i have a feeling*that i am on windows OS. KDE 4.0 is not KDE 4. Now i back too kde 3.5.8


On 1/17/08, Howard Coles Jr. <dhcolesj@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday 16 January 2008 09:37:25 pm Dotan Cohen wrote:
> On 17/01/2008, Howard Coles Jr. <
dhcolesj@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So Let me ask ya'
> > All the things folks are complaining about in KDE 4 in Gutsy, are they
> > as "non-functional" in Hardy?
> >******** a. can't resize Panels (where the Kmenu is if its not called a

> > "panel" any more).
> >******** b. Can't select multiple objects on the desktop without moving
> > the background.
> >******** c.**unstable.
> >******** d.**can't alter widgets (?) from plasma.

> >******** e.**can't configure Mouse buttons (like for a lefty or just to
> > alter what the 3rd button does).
> >******** f.**can't run Pidgin.
> >
> > My main concern is running Gnome apps generally, as Pidgin and Gnucash

> > are quite important around here.
>
> Those are KDE 4.0 issues, not Ubuntu issues. And _not_ KDE4 issues
> (KDE 4.0 is not KDE4).
>

Uh, right.

That doesn't answer my question.**I'm assuming that if his experience

was "pleasurable" then some of those issues were KDE 4.0 on gutsy issues, or
running as a side desktop issue, or something.**Either way, if they are not
problems on Hardy, then there's hope.


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See Ya'
Howard Coles Jr.
John 3:16!

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Old 01-20-2008, 01:30 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

On 20/01/2008, John Jeleaskov <jofriends1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I fink you right about kde 4. When i try it i have a feeling that i am on
> windows OS.

I'm afraid that was exactly the intention.

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Sylviane et Perry White
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

On Saturday 19 January 2008 19:33, Derek Broughton wrote:
> Sylviane et Perry White wrote:
(snip)
> > If a set has only one element the set is the same as the element, right?
> No. I'm arguing that KDE 4 is not a set at all.
We all expect it to become one.
(snip)
> > should the definition of the version change, from not-container to
> > container, "at this time", when a new revision is added?
>
> Not at all. KDE 4 is a desktop environment. It is synonymous (that's
> English, not Math) with KDE 4.0.0. But in another sense, yes, it _will_
> change with time.
(snip)
> There will come a time when there's a KDE 4.1 and a KDE 4.0, then you might
speak of KDE4 as a "set"
It would be strange that a mathemetician can hold the notion that something
only becomes a set as elements are added into it, what about the empty set?
But I guess that is not what you are saying. You claim we still don't know
what KDE4 is, and that we have no authority yet to call it a set, impossible
to disprove. Then it is just my feeling/expectation that KDE4 is/will-become
a set.

Cheers Perry
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:26 PM
Nils Kassube
 
Default KDE 4.0.0!

Sylviane et Perry White wrote:
> Then it is just my
> feeling/expectation that KDE4 is/will-become a set.

I would prefer if it becomes useable


Nils

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