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Old 01-09-2008, 06:18 AM
"Luke Knowles"
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

There's nothing wrong with thw KDE naming convention for most of the apps. KTorrent for example is a good one. It identifies itself as being a KDE app and at the same time a BitTorrent client. It's a better name than Transmission for new users. But, then again, not many new users would know what BitTorrent is.

For apps like Firefox it isn't just the name that people identify it with, it's also the icon. Someone who has been using the internet for a short while gets a friend who installs Firefox on their computer. They see the world icon and think it must be something to do with the Internet. And for them the Internet is a web browser. Easy.

The KOffice app names are great, like KTorrent they identify as being a KDE app and what they do. And going through my menu now (I have a SUSE-style menu, but I'm fairly sure it's the same for the KMenu) most of the apps don't have their names highlighted. It has something like "Image Viewer" and under it in grey writing that doesn't stick out is "Gwenview". No new user is going to know what Gwenview is but they will know what an Image Viewer is. I think in the KMenu it's something like "Image Viewer (Gwenview)".

So methinks that as long as something like this is in place we don't have to worry about the names of apps. Names are just something you call it. The description tells you what it is. It's the description that counts. Not the name.


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Old 01-09-2008, 07:59 AM
Graham
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 02:46:46 +0200
"Dotan Cohen" <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Microsoft has great names: Office for an office suit, Internet
> Explorer for an Internet web browser, Media Player for a media player.
> Ask someone off the street what Amarok or Firefox do, and you will get
> a blank stare.
[snipped]

That's because, in general, Micro$oft has patented or copyrighted names
and will go after others using them.

However, the mighty M$ have come up with some titles in the past which
don't make much sense. Ever heard of Access or Works: from their names
can you tell what they do?

K3B is the burning application in KDE. Once you know that, you will
know for burning you go to K3B. Its actually part of KDE-Extragear,
which from the KDE website is described as:

"KDE-Extragear: Extragear is a collection of applications associated
with the KDE project, not part of the official release for various
reasons."

So its not part of the KDE project and therefore (presumably) not
subject to any naming standard that you'd like to impose on the KDE
project..... Firefox, is of course, nothing to do with KDE but I
thought it was a pretty neat name for a browser: anyway, what does
Outlook or Outlook Express mean? Surely those names have taken on a
description by people being aware of what the applications DO?

You mention the "someone off the street": if that had been "someone off
the street who uses Linux", they would know what Amarok and Firefox are,
and there are many Windows and Mac users too who are quite aware of what
Firefox is - and use it. So my experience is that you would not get a
blank stare from many of the people I know...but my experience may be
different to yours.

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Sylviane et Perry White
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

On Wednesday 09 January 2008 06:02, cary Bielenberg wrote:
> On a lighter
> side one of her friends was complaining about her machine blue
> screening, her response was "whats a blue screen?"

That's a good one. ;O) Perry

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Old 01-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Norberto Bensa
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Quoting WANSTALL Malcolm <malcolm.wanstall@cnh.com>:

> Norberto Bensa wrote:
>> Microsoft Word. It doesn't mean anything to me.
>
> I beg to differ, Microsoft Word _does_ mean something to you, as a
> branded product. You know _exactly_ what it does because of the
> amount of money behind the brand and all kinds of advertising.

No no no and no.

I know what Word does because I used it.

Someone mentioned K3b. I know what K3b does because I used it. And
because in my "K" menu it's called "CD & DVD burning (k3b)" You don't
type it's name in a terminal anymore and you don't actually need to
know how it is called.

In my particular case, money has nothing to do with a successful
application. You make a good application, I use it. (and NO Word is
not a good application. It's bloated. But it's what everybody else
uses in the Windows world)

And BTW, do you know why is it called Microsoft Word? Do you remember
Word Perfect? Wordstar? Microsoft took the name of well established
products and then they'll sue you if you used "Word" to refer to a
word processor application. That's why we don't have "OpenOffice Word"
but "OpenOffice Write." And I think Writer is a much better name than
Word: "this is what you use to _write_ something..."

You say you don't have a problem with core applications, but when you
started this thread you mentioned Konqueror and Kontact... Then, what
are the 3rd party applications that you are referring to?

Regards,
Norberto



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Old 01-09-2008, 12:31 PM
"Kelly L. Fulks"
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> Norberto Bensa wrote:
>> Would you had a problem if it was named Kcontact? Kconqueror?
>
> No, actually that seems to make it look more silly. As someone pointed out earlier, I have less of an issue with the core products, more the 3rd party ones tend to be pushing the limit...realising these core ones do have some brand behind them it's a bit adventurous for me to want a change.
>
>> Microsoft Word. It doesn't mean anything to me. Because guess what: I
>> speak SPANISH! Would Microsoft rename it Microsoft Palabra? And while
>> we are at it. What does Microsoft Word do? Is it a spellchecker?
>
> I beg to differ, Microsoft Word _does_ mean something to you, as a branded product. You know _exactly_ what it does because of the amount of money behind the brand and all kinds of advertising. Products with less financial clout have to be more clever to be seen.
>
>> On the other hand. OpenOffice Calc is named OpenOffice Planilla de
>> Cálculo if you install language-pack-es and it is a big plus for us
>> non-us/gb people
>
> That's a VERY clever feature of OOo and please note I'm not trying to take away from any software itself (especially not OOo since I use it, and all of the K* programs daily)
>
>> And remember: not everyone speaks English... So what should be meanful
>> to you, it's not to the other 6 billions people out there...
>
> That's a valid point and I take that on board. I think we're both aiming at different points a little here, I'm not trying to argue with the internationalisation of KDE, I think that is fantastic, what I would like to see is some more creativity and thought put into the branding (thus naming) of top notch software. It does have a habit of scaring away some new people and I'd like to see the barriers to entry as low as possible. Possibly there is a new position to add to open source dev teams, even for little projects, someone with some marketing experience...someone from...the outside world.
>
> -Mal
>

The "core" products for KDE did not necessarily start as core products.
At least some of what we now consider core products started as "third
party" products and have reached a point where they are now main
streamed into the core. In one of your early messages you mentioned
Kontact, well that is relatively new. You see it is comprised of
KMail, Kaddressbook, Korganizer, Aggregator, Knode, Knotes, etc. And
even those were not necessarily core applications initially.

So if you were starting a new KDE based program and wanted to catch the
eye of the KDE community, you would likely want to name your program
with a K as the first letter. There are multiple reasons for this
actually. First, the community has bought into that branding just as
the Apple community has bought into the "i" branding. Second, your
application would appear with the other KDE applications in most package
management systems and would thus be seen by folks looking for a KDE
program. Third, you avoid a potential name change for your application
if it happens to become accepted into the core products. All the core
products do not start with K, but many do.

You mention in your message that we know what Microsoft Word does
because of the branding and the money that Microsoft pours into it. You
are correct, but KDE does not have the money poured into it that
Microsoft or Apple pour into their brands. Such clever tricks as the K
help to build the recognition of the "brand". I am, however, thankful
that they don't attempt to chase down everyone using words starting with
the letter K and sue them into submission, because they would be after
me (look at my name below).

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near Huntsville, AL

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Old 01-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:

> When I returned she said she wanted XP because Kubuntu was illogical
> (which of course fried my brain since I find it 100% _more_ intuitive
> than most other OSs) so I pressed her to list the things that caused her
> to say that. They were:
>
> 1/ The font names were all different (Okay, can't help that one but I'm
> sure we could work through relearning that little pest) AND
>
> 2/ Things had stupid names (i.e. Kontact, Konquerer, Kolf etc...)
>
> It got me thinking...that is one of the things that first annoyed me
> about KDE, that it is _cool_ to name your program starting with a "K". I
> realise that it serves a small purpose (identifying KDE vs Gnome
> programs and ducking TM issues) but surely to anyone trying to MOVE to
> Kubuntu, it would look a bit...immature (like putting "z" on the end of
> words to make you 1337). It just feels like and in-joke that needs to
> die if KDE wants to be taken even more seriously.

That has always been a complaint of mine against anything *nix-ish. There
are far too many juvenile in-jokes (I filed a bug report against a KDE
app - fortunately now forgotten - that shipped with a truly inane help
file, with the note that it would have been far better received by users if
it had no documentation at all than with the childish file attached. I was
simply told that it wouldn't be fixed unless I rewrote the help file
myself).

But really, why bother trying to push the product on anyone who's only
complaints about the programs are their names! The reaction is as juvenile
as what she's complaining about. (Though even that's fixable - if you
change the menu to show only Descriptions, not Names, she wouldn't have
even noticed.)

> Does anyone else see this as a bit of a marketing blunder and is there
> _any_ community push to change this? Surely good names like Amarok,
> Rosegarden and Bluefish aren't that hard to come up with...they
> certainly make a better first impression on people new to KDE/Linux.

I disagree. Unless distros start separating their repositories into kde &
gnome, it's much more convenient for us to be able to tell at a glance
which desktop they're for.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:04 PM
Jonathan Patrick Davies
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

On Wednesday 09 January 2008 01:46:46 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> There really should be a movement towards better names. What the hell
> is K3B? And what program should I burn a disk with?

It stands for Burn Baby Burn and with KDE: K3B

Patrick
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:38 PM
Jonathan Patrick Davies
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

On Tuesday 08 January 2008 23:25:22 WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> It got me thinking...that is one of the things that first annoyed me
> about KDE, that it is _cool_ to name your program starting with a "K". I
> realise that it serves a small purpose (identifying KDE vs Gnome
> programs and ducking TM issues) but surely to anyone trying to MOVE to
> Kubuntu, it would look a bit...immature (like putting "z" on the end of
> words to make you 1337). It just feels like and in-joke that needs to
> die if KDE wants to be taken even more seriously.
>
> Does anyone else see this as a bit of a marketing blunder and is there
> _any_ community push to change this? Surely good names like Amarok,
> Rosegarden and Bluefish aren't that hard to come up with...they
> certainly make a better first impression on people new to KDE/Linux.

I think uou'll all be pleased to know that this has changed in KDE 4 and
several apps do not follow the old-school naming.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:41 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Graham wrote:

> However, the mighty M$ have come up with some titles in the past which
> don't make much sense. Ever heard of Access or Works: from their names
> can you tell what they do?

Access is the worst. Have you ever tried to google about "accessing"
anything? That brings up a very good reason for sticking to the KDE naming
conventions. When I google (if I ever did) "Explorer", I will get a lot of
references to something other than the browser. When I google "konqueror",
I'm _always_ going to get browsers.

"Works" of course is an application of an age-old advertising maxim: "if you
want people to think the product does something it doesn't, put it in the
name"!

> Firefox, is of course, nothing to do with KDE but I
> thought it was a pretty neat name for a browser: anyway, what does
> Outlook or Outlook Express mean? Surely those names have taken on a
> description by people being aware of what the applications DO?

"Outlook Express" is another use of the maxim - if you know what Outlook
does, you might expect "Outlook Express" to do something similar. It
doesn't. Even the address books are incompatible. And people who rail
against Outlook for it's ignorance of email standards are almost always
actually talking about OE (Though Outlook is far worse...)
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

roger@rogerchrisman.com wrote:

> K3B, a great brand name. Who can forget it? I'd say it stands for
> KDEBurner but I'd probably be wrong[1].

Yeah, but it's nowhere near as good a name as "abcde" (a better cd encoder).
From that, you could of course make a gnome front-end "abcdefg" (for
gnome), but it would be awkward to do anything for KDE.
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