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Old 01-09-2008, 02:04 AM
"D. Michael McIntyre"
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

On Tuesday 08 January 2008, WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> Does anyone else see this as a bit of a marketing blunder and is there
> _any_ community push to change this? Surely good names like Amarok,
> Rosegarden and Bluefish aren't that hard to come up with...they
> certainly make a better first impression on people new to KDE/Linux.

I think the real bottom line here has nothing to do with the names, but with
everything being different. People hate different.

It goes the other way too. My wife never did much with a computer until she
finally had some reason to start exchanging email. She went straight from
DOS 3.X to Ubuntu Dapper or so, and this is all she knows of the modern
world. I did a business-related experiment on her box, and set it up to boot
Windows Vista as the default OS for awhile, with the whole Microsoft Office
suite and a ton of other normal mainstream "real" software.

I actually thought she'd like it better, since Windows is the king of the
universe and stuff, but nothing could have been further from the truth. She
totally despised everything about Windows, and couldn't figure out how to do
anything, because the fonts had different names, and all the applications
looked strange, and had weird names.

Like WinAmp instead of MPlayer, or Outlook instead of KMail, and most
importantly of all, where was KMahjongg? That was the deal breaker right
there. I heard no end of bitching until I obliterated Windows and fixed her
computer.

Anyway, Rosegarden's name dates back to way before KDE. The current KDE-based
version is the third remake of the original.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:05 AM
Stew Schneider
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> Simply put, a _potential_ user saw an incredibly minor aesthetic issue
> and it turned her off using the entire system (what a shame).

We are clear, aren't we, that the naming convention, in all likelihood,
*wasn't* the problem? I don't disagree that the K naming convention is
cute to the point of pointlessness, but that's hardly the problem. The
problem is that KDE is different.

Sit down at anybody else's computer. Try to do anything. Does not, "this
is *wrong*", scream at you, even if the computer is well maintained and
functioning? It's just human inertia. We don't like to change things
after we've become used to something else.

For most folks "the computer" is synonymous with MS Windows. Ask most
folks where the computer is and they'll point to the screen. The box is
just there to hold the carpet down. The Start button is at the lower
left, because that is where it was prophesied to be by the prophet
Jeremiah and it darn well better have that Windows thing on it. Most
folks have no idea what an operating system is, and don't care to. What
they want to do is type a letter or browse the web and anything that
gets in the way of their doing that by being different or looking
different screams "this is wrong". This is part of the reason why VISTA
uptake is so slow. It's different. Of course, the rest of the reason is
that it's trash, but I digress....

Linux users tend to be those too cussed to deal with Microsoft's
nuttiness, or interested enough to know why "the computer" has to have
that box hooked onto it, or people who actually know and care what goes
on inside the box. We're a distinct subset of the typical computer user.

It's like the Jimmy Dean sausage commercial. Sun is cooking up a Jimmy
Dean breakfast and offering it to Cloud. Cloud says he only eats cold
cereal.

Sun asks "Come on! Why wouldn't you try something different?"
Cloud responds, "Cereal is cold and wet. It's a cloud thing. You
wouldn't understand."

Windows is cold and wet. It's an ordinary user thing...

Just my 2 cents worth.

stew


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Old 01-09-2008, 02:25 AM
Billie Walsh
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> I gave my friend, a very educated young lass, a live CD of Kubuntu as
> she was wanting me to downgrade her Vista laptop to XP and I thought it
> was my civic duty to show her another option. I said "Play around with
> it for a day and see if it does what you want" which, after some
> convincing, she did.
>
> When I returned she said she wanted XP because Kubuntu was illogical
> (which of course fried my brain since I find it 100% _more_ intuitive
> than most other OSs) so I pressed her to list the things that caused her
> to say that. They were:
>
> 1/ The font names were all different (Okay, can't help that one but I'm
> sure we could work through relearning that little pest) AND
>
> 2/ Things had stupid names (i.e. Kontact, Konquerer, Kolf etc...)
>
> It got me thinking...that is one of the things that first annoyed me
> about KDE, that it is _cool_ to name your program starting with a "K". I
> realise that it serves a small purpose (identifying KDE vs Gnome
> programs and ducking TM issues) but surely to anyone trying to MOVE to
> Kubuntu, it would look a bit...immature (like putting "z" on the end of
> words to make you 1337). It just feels like and in-joke that needs to
> die if KDE wants to be taken even more seriously.
>
> Does anyone else see this as a bit of a marketing blunder and is there
> _any_ community push to change this? Surely good names like Amarok,
> Rosegarden and Bluefish aren't that hard to come up with...they
> certainly make a better first impression on people new to KDE/Linux.
>
>
In fact it's not just Kubuntu/KDE. It's pretty much a Linux problem. I
know, I know. The names are usually acronyms [ although for the life of
me I can't think of a great example off the top of my head - senior
moment { this hair is not blond, it's gray } ]. But, they are hard for a
noob to figure out the first time they see some of them. [ how the hell
does a noob see "kooka" and KNOW it's scanning/OCR software - if it
didn't tell you in the menu ] Hell, I still get the giggles when I see
some of the names things get [ I mean where the hell did "airsnort" come
from - airsniff maybe .................... but airsnort?????? ]

It doesn't take long to figure out what things do despite the names. But
I can see where it might put someone off. It's not that the software is
poor, most is at the very least as good as the commercial stuff and
mostly better, it's just that the names could use a bit of help. How are
people supposed to take it serious when a list of program names reads
like a Robin Williams monologue.

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Old 01-09-2008, 03:19 AM
Norberto Bensa
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Quoting WANSTALL Malcolm <malcolm.wanstall@cnh.com>:

> Simply put, a _potential_ user saw an incredibly minor aesthetic issue...

I guess that very same user had no problem with WINsomething and
iSomething. I don't see why Gsomething and Ksomething is a problem for
him/her.

And no. It was not an attack on you. I'm sorry very much if you took
that way. I'm subscribed to many MLs (Gentoo, Kubuntu, KDE*) and this
topic comes every now and then (more often than I'd like) and I would
like it to die already. K* and G* is an easy way to know which
environment does the application run (which libraries do you need, etc.)



Regards,
Norberto

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Old 01-09-2008, 03:37 AM
"WANSTALL Malcolm"
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Norberto Bensa wrote:
>I guess that very same user had no problem with WINsomething and
>iSomething. I don't see why Gsomething and Ksomething is a problem for

>him/her.
>
>And no. It was not an attack on you. I'm sorry very much if you took
>that way. I'm subscribed to many MLs (Gentoo, Kubuntu, KDE*) and this
>topic comes every now and then (more often than I'd like) and I would
>like it to die already. K* and G* is an easy way to know which
>environment does the application run (which libraries do you need,
>etc.)

After initially Googling this topic to see if I could find any strong
words for it, I couldn't however if, as you say, this topic won't die,
then maybe I certainly _do_ have a point. I would hate to think
something as trivial as an unprofessional naming convention could get in
the way of someone discovering such a fantastic OS/windows manager
(which in some cases it clearly is).

I'm not going to rebut any of the Win*/i* comments more than to say the
Win* products (whilst in the VAST minority of Windows programs) do _not_
encourage the intentional and trite misspelling of words...as for the
i-Suite, I don't use them therefore can't comment but I'd say they'd
also fall into the "trendy" bucket of programs that people new to them
may not take seriously...there is also the millions of dollars Apple
pours in to branding to help sell those silly names.

Being involved with an international company juggling over 40 brands I
know how important names are to the adoption of products sight unseen
and as a Linux and open source fan I hate to see our products sold
short. It's a part of Linux where I see massive potential and a simple
way to reach more people.

Oh, and I didn't take it personally, I just didn't think it was ready to
die!

And thanks to Rosie earlier for the ms fonts package! I'd gotten so used
to Linux fonts I'd forgotten about it.

-Mal

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Old 01-09-2008, 04:02 AM
cary Bielenberg
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Martin Walshe wrote:





There
really should be a movement towards better names. What the hell


is K3B? And what program should I burn a disk with?



Microsoft has great names: Office for an office suit, Internet

Explorer for an Internet web browser, Media Player for a media player.

Ask someone off the street what Amarok or Firefox do, and you will get


a blank stare.



K3B has to be the worst of the bunch.



Dotan Cohen



K3B is such a great app though its name doesnt matter. If you want the
normal why are you on a linux distro? Anyone who uses the distros knows
what the apps are so i dont see a problem.





Ok, lets jump the fence for a moment! What the hell is Nero? or Adobe
Acrobat,? Windows has it's fair share of weird names! Just as someone
now to computing has a learning curve so do new users to KDE or Gnome.
I struggled at 1st with the names but now it is 2nd nature. My wife who
is a typical Windows user (past tense) had Kubuntu thrust upon her when
her Windows machine kept blue screening while on a deadline to finish
an assignment last year, I got her to get out my laptop, log in &
pointed her to the shares where her files were on the server &
bingo she was back in action. Her learning curve was not that great
& now she is a great ambassador to Linux/Kubuntu (she even wears a
Kubuntu polo to work some days)



The reason for my ramble is anything different has a learning curve! If
you have the motivation or need you will learn very easily. On a
lighter side one of her friends was complaining about her machine blue
screening, her response was "whats a blue screen?"





Cary



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Old 01-09-2008, 04:15 AM
Norberto Bensa
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Quoting WANSTALL Malcolm <malcolm.wanstall@cnh.com>:

> Win* products (whilst in the VAST minority of Windows programs) do _not_
> encourage the intentional and trite misspelling of words...

What misspelling?

Konqueror for Conqueror? Kontact for Contact? You know KDE was born in
Germany and people there actually speak German, don't you?

Would you had a problem if it was named Kcontact? Kconqueror?

What does winamp mean? What does it do?

Microsoft Word. It doesn't mean anything to me. Because guess what: I
speak SPANISH! Would Microsoft rename it Microsoft Palabra? And while
we are at it. What does Microsoft Word do? Is it a spellchecker?

On the other hand. OpenOffice Calc is named OpenOffice Planilla de
Cálculo if you install language-pack-es and it is a big plus for us
non-us/gb people

Don't let potential users use Linux on their own. Guide them. Show
them. Tell them Linux is different. It does has all the things they
need but they're just named different. Don't leave them alone...

And just one more thing. The real problem is: most people think a
computer is Windows. It won't change. Never.


> Being involved with an international company juggling over 40 brands I
> know how important names are to the adoption of products sight unseen
> and as a Linux and open source fan I hate to see our products sold
> short. It's a part of Linux where I see massive potential and a simple
> way to reach more people.

Then you know how many greens are involved in branding and marketing.
And remember: not everyone speaks English... So what should be meanful
to you, it's not to the other 6 billions people out there...


Regards,
Norberto


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Old 01-09-2008, 04:45 AM
"WANSTALL Malcolm"
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

Norberto Bensa wrote:
>Would you had a problem if it was named Kcontact? Kconqueror?

No, actually that seems to make it look more silly. As someone pointed out earlier, I have less of an issue with the core products, more the 3rd party ones tend to be pushing the limit...realising these core ones do have some brand behind them it's a bit adventurous for me to want a change.

>Microsoft Word. It doesn't mean anything to me. Because guess what: I
>speak SPANISH! Would Microsoft rename it Microsoft Palabra? And while
>we are at it. What does Microsoft Word do? Is it a spellchecker?

I beg to differ, Microsoft Word _does_ mean something to you, as a branded product. You know _exactly_ what it does because of the amount of money behind the brand and all kinds of advertising. Products with less financial clout have to be more clever to be seen.

>On the other hand. OpenOffice Calc is named OpenOffice Planilla de
>Cálculo if you install language-pack-es and it is a big plus for us
>non-us/gb people

That's a VERY clever feature of OOo and please note I'm not trying to take away from any software itself (especially not OOo since I use it, and all of the K* programs daily)

>And remember: not everyone speaks English... So what should be meanful
>to you, it's not to the other 6 billions people out there...

That's a valid point and I take that on board. I think we're both aiming at different points a little here, I'm not trying to argue with the internationalisation of KDE, I think that is fantastic, what I would like to see is some more creativity and thought put into the branding (thus naming) of top notch software. It does have a habit of scaring away some new people and I'd like to see the barriers to entry as low as possible. Possibly there is a new position to add to open source dev teams, even for little projects, someone with some marketing experience...someone from...the outside world.

-Mal

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Old 01-09-2008, 05:46 AM
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

K3B, a great brand name. Who can forget it? I'd say it stands for
KDEBurner but I'd probably be wrong[1]. K3B sure beats KDEB or
KDEBurner. Programmers cleave to short snappy names like the rest of
us. I don't think there is a problem with the names. I read this whole
thread, from top to here, with interest. Names are important. Names
are as names do.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K3b

Cheers,
Roger Chrisman
I *like* my name :-)

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Old 01-09-2008, 06:16 AM
Nils Kassube
 
Default KDE Programs Naming Convention

WANSTALL Malcolm wrote:
> I gave my friend, a very educated young lass, a live CD of Kubuntu as
> she was wanting me to downgrade her Vista laptop to XP and I thought it
> was my civic duty to show her another option. I said "Play around with
> it for a day and see if it does what you want" which, after some
> convincing, she did.

If some convincing is necessary, it is no wonder if she came up with some
silly arguments why not to use the new thing. What she meant was
really "I don't want to learn something new". Even if the program names
were brilliant, there would be some other reason why not to use it. In
that situation there is no chance to convert someone - don't force people
to use Linux. I have given Linux distros to several people. I have never
heard anyone complaining about all those application names with a K
instead of a C. Either people are willing to try something new or there
is no chance at all.


Nils

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