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Old 03-12-2009, 08:43 PM
"Alan Dacey Sr."
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

On Thursday 12 March 2009 03:21:26 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> I'm not blaming the ext4 developers nor am I blaming KDE, but there
> exists a dangerous condition for using KDE under ext4:
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/11/2031231
>
> The /. article links to Launchpad bugs. I do not link to them directly
> because the /. comments are actually very important for this issue,
> and will be more informative than the flames and
> responsibility-denying that I am sure will ensue here.
>
> In short, don't use ext4 on Kubuntu Jaunty. In fact, I have argued
> before that end users should avoid ext4 or any new technology for some
> time after debut.
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen
>
So that's what happened to my .kde directory two days ago. It killed grub on
the update I did last night. I was also unable to shut down/log off in any way
for a few days but that got fixed with a fresh install of Alpha 5 when I was
fixing grub. (I got sloppy and installed the alpha grub on hd0 - doh!) There
were all sorts of odd things happening for the last two weeks, and not just
the odd bug here and there. I think it started after I over-clocked a bit too
much and I got a spontaneous reboot.
Thanks for the info, I'll follow this bug and not use ext4 until it's
resolved.

Alan

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Old 03-12-2009, 10:44 PM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2009/3/12 Matthew Flaschen <matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu>:
>> Dotan Cohen wrote:
>>> I'm not blaming the ext4 developers nor am I blaming KDE, but there
>>> exists a dangerous condition for using KDE under ext4:
>> It has absolutely nothing to do with KDE, except they are one example of
>> a app that expects more than POSIX has to offer.
>>
>
> It has everything to do with KDE because of the way KDE syncs it's data to disk.

Many applications make this (incorrect) assumption, not just KDE.

> There already was some AC on either this list or the Ubuntu list
> asking about ext4 and he could not understand that new does not mean
> better. I think that the Windows school of though is to use the newest
> everything, including beta service packs when they can be torrented.

Obviously that's not always true.

>> . Among other things, it notes that ext4's behavior in no way violates
>> the spec. /However,/ it does conflict with application expectations,
>> and so we will be adjusted.
>>
>
> In one month? You trust _your_ data to it.

When did I say people should use ext4? And what makes you think this
can't be changed sanely in a month? The on-disk format would be
impossible to change at this point, but algorithm tweaks should not be
infeasible at all.

There are very compelling advantages for ext4 over ext3, and speaking
for myself I will probably switch at an appropriate time.

> I meant that uninformed ACs on this list will start throwing blame.
> Maybe I underestimated the maturity of this list. Sorry.

No problem.
> No, it does ont affect Gnome which syncs it's data in the more robust
> method. I do not know about XFCE.

This again makes me doubt you read the report:

"After rebooting all my Wine registry files were 0 bytes, as were many
of my Gnome configuration files."

It is /not/ DE-specific.

Matt Flaschen


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Old 03-13-2009, 11:02 AM
Chris Jones
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

> No, it does ont affect Gnome which syncs it's data in the more robust
> method. I do not know about XFCE.

As far as I am aware, it does effect gnome. It potentially affects any
application that doesn't use fsync() properly, and this includes gnome.

Chris


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Old 03-13-2009, 01:23 PM
Dotan Cohen
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

>> It has everything to do with KDE because of the way KDE syncs it's data to disk.
>
> Many applications make this (incorrect) assumption, not just KDE.
>

That is correct.

>> There already was some AC on either this list or the Ubuntu list
>> asking about ext4 and he could not understand that new does not mean
>> better. I think that the Windows school of though is to use the newest
>> everything, including beta service packs when they can be torrented.
>
> Obviously that's not always true.
>

It doesn't have to be always true, just sometimes true, for a warning
to be prudent.

>>> . Among other things, it notes that ext4's behavior in no way violates
>>> the spec. */However,/ it does conflict with application expectations,
>>> and so we will be adjusted.
>>
>> In one month? You trust _your_ data to it.
>
> When did I say people should use ext4? *And what makes you think this
> can't be changed sanely in a month? *The on-disk format would be
> impossible to change at this point, but algorithm tweaks should not be
> infeasible at all.
>

I am not going to split hairs with you nor play he-said-she-said. The
combination of KDE (this is a KDE-centric list) and ext4 (the new
shiny filesystem in this list's focus) is dangerous today.

> There are very compelling advantages for ext4 over ext3, and speaking
> for myself I will probably switch at an appropriate time.
>

There are advantages, but "very compelling"? Which advantage would you
call "very compelling". Furthermore, I agree about "appropriate time"
but now is not appropriate time.

--
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
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а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
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Old 03-13-2009, 01:25 PM
Dotan Cohen
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

>> No, it does ont affect Gnome which syncs it's data in the more robust
>> method. I do not know about XFCE.
>
> As far as I am aware, it does effect gnome. It potentially affects any
> application that doesn't use fsync() properly, and this includes gnome.
>

Even if it does affect Gnome, that is besides the point. It affects
the software central to _this_list_ which is why I brought up the
discussion. I don't care about some stupid DE war.

--
Dotan Cohen

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http://gibberish.co.il

א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
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а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:55 PM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

Dotan Cohen wrote:
>> There are very compelling advantages for ext4 over ext3, and speaking
>> for myself I will probably switch at an appropriate time.
>>
>
> There are advantages, but "very compelling"? Which advantage would you
> call "very compelling".

For a desktop user with a rotational hard drive (like me) , there are
very significant speed gains. See
http://www.linuxinsight.com/first_benchmarks_of_the_ext4_file_system.html
among other places.

Matt Flaschen

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Old 03-14-2009, 03:21 AM
Dotan Cohen
 
Default To those moving to Jaunty: Do not use the new ext4

> For a desktop user with a rotational hard drive (like me) , there are
> very significant speed gains. *See
> http://www.linuxinsight.com/first_benchmarks_of_the_ext4_file_system.html
> among other places.
>

Those tests were made two and a half years ago. Phoronix recently got
much less optimistic benchmarks out of ext4 with the production
version:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ext4_benchmarks&num=1

--
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ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-*-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه*-و-ي
А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-*-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-*-Ю-Я
а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я
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