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Old 12-30-2007, 02:57 AM
Bruce Bales
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

I ran across this link and didn't find anything about it in the latest
postings on this list. Maybe I missed it a while back.
http://www.news.com/underexposed/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?tag=nefd.top

Makes me sad if this means we won't be using a fully supported release next
year, or am I reading it wrong? I really prefer KDE to Gnome.
bruce

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Old 12-30-2007, 03:17 AM
Wulfy
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

Bruce Bales wrote:
> I ran across this link and didn't find anything about it in the latest
> postings on this list. Maybe I missed it a while back.
> http://www.news.com/underexposed/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?tag=nefd.top
>
> Makes me sad if this means we won't be using a fully supported release next
> year, or am I reading it wrong? I really prefer KDE to Gnome.
> bruce
>
>
<quote>
Remnant said. "The KDE upstream position appears clear: KDE 4 is the
focus of developer attention; KDE 3.5 will be supported as long as KDE 4
isn't suitable for support."
</quote>

We won't have KDE 4.0 but KDE 3.5 will still be supported. From what
I've read, we're probably better waiting for 4.1 anyway...

--
Blessings

Wulfmann

Wulf Credo:
Respect the elders. Teach the young. Co-operate with the pack.
Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between.
Share your affections. Voice your opinion. Leave your Mark.


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Old 12-30-2007, 03:26 AM
"D. Michael McIntyre"
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

On Saturday 29 December 2007, Bruce Bales wrote:

> I ran across this link and didn't find anything about it in the latest
> postings on this list. Maybe I missed it a while back.

It has come up.

> Makes me sad if this means we won't be using a fully supported release next
> year, or am I reading it wrong? I really prefer KDE to Gnome.

I love how that article ends "All this overlapping work on KDE and GNOME could
be put to better use, matching or beating the innovation and performance of
proprietary operating-system interfaces."

I agree completely, but the problem is nobody will ever agree on which project
is a monumental waste of effort.

Of course it's GNOME, but you don't have to look far to find people who would
argue that point to the bitter end. (Like 2/3 of the people using Ubuntu and
its variants for starters.)

The bottom line is that if one project or the other decided to cease
development, the newly "unemployed" volunteer developers would not move over
to the other side anyway. We work on whatever we love, and you don't just
swap in one love for another. The game doesn't work that way.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Old 12-30-2007, 03:50 AM
Donn
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

> I agree completely, but the problem is nobody will ever agree on which
> project is a monumental waste of effort. ... We work on whatever we love,
and you don't just swap in one love for another. The game doesn't work that
way.
Mike, I think you just described the history of the human race! An awesome
precis!

We are 'selfish' altruists at our deepest levels and Linux is a good example
of this. Heck, I reckon, the insides of proprietary software would reflect
the same thing; a patchwork of 'camps' on the source-code territory as the
likes attracted likes and cooperated with the 'others' to produce something
they all needed.

Maybe if we were Borg...

d


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Old 12-30-2007, 02:00 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

Bruce Bales wrote:

> I ran across this link and didn't find anything about it in the latest
> postings on this list. Maybe I missed it a while back.
> http://www.news.com/underexposed/8301-13580_3-9838094-39.html?tag=nefd.top
>
> Makes me sad if this means we won't be using a fully supported release
> next
> year, or am I reading it wrong? I really prefer KDE to Gnome.
> bruce

First, please don't hijack somebody else's thread. (ie, don't use REPLY to
post a message that is not related to the message you're replying to).

Really, how do you think Canonical could commit to KDE 4? It's nowhere near
ready for use, in my testing at least, and certainly not something they
could choose _now_ for inclusion in April.
--
derek


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Old 12-30-2007, 02:06 PM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

D. Michael McIntyre wrote:

> I love how that article ends "All this overlapping work on KDE and GNOME
> could be put to better use, matching or beating the innovation and
> performance of proprietary operating-system interfaces."
>
> I agree completely, but the problem is nobody will ever agree on which
> project is a monumental waste of effort.
>
> Of course it's GNOME,

LOL - but you're preaching to the converted on this list. :-)

> The bottom line is that if one project or the other decided to cease
> development, the newly "unemployed" volunteer developers would not move
> over
> to the other side anyway. We work on whatever we love, and you don't just
> swap in one love for another. The game doesn't work that way.

Very well said - except that I don't really agree that "overlapping" work on
KDE & Gnome is wasted. I always say FLOSS is evolutionary, rarely
revolutionary. Like evolution, our software develops by following many
paths, _most_ of which fail, but occasionally an improvement comes along
and it gets adopted widely. But that means that it's always to our
advantage to have development occuring on as many fronts as possible.
--
derek


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Old 12-30-2007, 04:54 PM
"D. Michael McIntyre"
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

On Sunday 30 December 2007, Derek Broughton wrote:
> But that means that it's always to our
> advantage to have development occuring on as many fronts as possible. --

Talking about evolution, and organic stuff, I started thinking about
polarizing software pairs all the way back to before the DOS days. It's
nothing new. Every niche has at least two competitors in the arena; each
with its own rabid fan base. Until Microsoft buys one of them, and kills it.

Their practice is like forced inbreeding. They buy a competing product and
kill it off, forcing everyone to migrate. Everyone ends up with the same
DNA, so to speak, and it leads to the same sorts of problems in software that
it does in biology. Weird diseases, high susceptibility to infections, weak
constitution, etc.

We have the opposite here, with interbreeding writ large. I guess you can
argue we take it too far in the other direction though. When you have gnomes
bred with kdedids in 42 different flavors, it can start to look like one of
Mephisto's five-assed monkeys.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Old 12-30-2007, 05:33 PM
Donn
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

> Their practice is like forced inbreeding. They buy a competing product and
> kill it off, forcing everyone to migrate. Everyone ends up with the same
> DNA, so to speak
Great analogy.

I wonder to what extent monopolies retard civilization globally? It seems they
start because there is a niche and they happen to be run by greedy men. I
know in South Africa we have to suffer under the yolk of a single Telephone
company and I can never understand why the State does not kick it out on it's
arse. Perhaps there's a lot of corruption going on, but there may be other
complex factors.

> We have the opposite here, with interbreeding writ large. I guess you can
> argue we take it too far in the other direction though.
It has taken me many years to get over my programmer's distaste
of 're-inventing the wheel' - to see the advantages of the FLOSS method.
It took starting my own project to see just how *large* it all is and how
totally hypothetical it is to say "why don't 'they' all just use the same
libs? Why don't 'they' share this much-vaunted open code? Why don't 'they'
stick to standards?" -- as if anything in software ever did.
It's a pervasive mindset that comes from being hypnotised by DOS and Windows
into believing them all based on one fluid, highly optimized and cleverly
efficient plan. In reality it's just all hidden behind marketing and a logo.
Same chaos underneath, but you never see it. (until it blue-screens)

The advantage, from my limited pov, of FLOSS is that at least I (as a
developer) get the *chance* to see other people's code and get to stand on
their shoulders - it sure don't mean that I am going to savvy anything more
than one layer beyond where I'm coding - and it sure don't mean that I expect
anyone else to either.

Evolution is the perfect word. It's cranes lifting code, making more cranes
all the way up. To go back and tear stuff down is too costly and I think the
shape of things to come will be lifted on the cranes of the shape of things
past.


d
--
"To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow pre-ordained
for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he [Adams] mimed a
wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting itself snugly into
a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily being exactly the same
shape as the puddle."
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)


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Old 12-30-2007, 06:52 PM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

On Sunday 30 December 2007, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
>On Sunday 30 December 2007, Derek Broughton wrote:
>> But that means that it's always to our
>> advantage to have development occuring on as many fronts as possible. --
>
>Talking about evolution, and organic stuff, I started thinking about
>polarizing software pairs all the way back to before the DOS days. It's
>nothing new. Every niche has at least two competitors in the arena; each
>with its own rabid fan base. Until Microsoft buys one of them, and kills
> it.
>
>Their practice is like forced inbreeding. They buy a competing product and
>kill it off, forcing everyone to migrate. Everyone ends up with the same
>DNA, so to speak, and it leads to the same sorts of problems in software
> that it does in biology. Weird diseases, high susceptibility to
> infections, weak constitution, etc.
>
>We have the opposite here, with interbreeding writ large. I guess you can
>argue we take it too far in the other direction though. When you have
> gnomes bred with kdedids in 42 different flavors, it can start to look like
> one of Mephisto's five-assed monkeys.

Chuckle, I see you are back to doing stand-up in front of a live audience
again.


>--
>D. Michael McIntyre



--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I used to be disgusted, now I find I'm just amused.
-- Elvis Costello

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Old 12-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Gene Heskett
 
Default Ubuntu 8.04 and KDE

On Sunday 30 December 2007, Donn wrote:
>> Their practice is like forced inbreeding. They buy a competing product
>> and kill it off, forcing everyone to migrate. Everyone ends up with the
>> same DNA, so to speak
>
>Great analogy.
>
>I wonder to what extent monopolies retard civilization globally? It seems
> they start because there is a niche and they happen to be run by greedy
> men. I know in South Africa we have to suffer under the yolk of a single
> Telephone company and I can never understand why the State does not kick it
> out on it's arse. Perhaps there's a lot of corruption going on, but there
> may be other complex factors.
>
In the case of South Africa, the corruption pays entirely too well, and will
not get changed without some bloodshed I fear, and that continent in general
has seen entirely too damned much of that in the last 30 years.

>> We have the opposite here, with interbreeding writ large. I guess you can
>> argue we take it too far in the other direction though.
>
>It has taken me many years to get over my programmer's distaste
>of 're-inventing the wheel' - to see the advantages of the FLOSS method.
> It took starting my own project to see just how *large* it all is and how
>totally hypothetical it is to say "why don't 'they' all just use the same
>libs? Why don't 'they' share this much-vaunted open code? Why don't 'they'
>stick to standards?" -- as if anything in software ever did.
> It's a pervasive mindset that comes from being hypnotised by DOS and
> Windows into believing them all based on one fluid, highly optimized and
> cleverly efficient plan. In reality it's just all hidden behind marketing
> and a logo. Same chaos underneath, but you never see it. (until it
> blue-screens)
>
>The advantage, from my limited pov, of FLOSS is that at least I (as a
>developer) get the *chance* to see other people's code and get to stand on
>their shoulders - it sure don't mean that I am going to savvy anything more
>than one layer beyond where I'm coding - and it sure don't mean that I
> expect anyone else to either.
>
>Evolution is the perfect word. It's cranes lifting code, making more cranes
>all the way up. To go back and tear stuff down is too costly and I think the
>shape of things to come will be lifted on the cranes of the shape of things
>past.

Variation on a theme that is now a few centuries old, and well translated too.

>--
>"To illustrate the vain conceit that the universe must be somehow
> pre-ordained for us, because we are so well-suited to live in it, he
> [Adams] mimed a wonderfully funny imitation of a puddle of water, fitting
> itself snugly into a depression in the ground, the depression uncannily
> being exactly the same shape as the puddle."
>-- Richard Dawkins, in "Lament for Douglas" (14 May 2001)

A different viewpoint, and who is to say which is correct...

--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Miller's Slogan:
Lose a few, lose a few.

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