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Clay Weber 12-20-2008 04:40 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
On Sat December 20 2008 10:08:21 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>
> You obviously weren't there for the mayhem. It was pretty ugly. They
> called into question the parenthood of just about everyone at SUSE.
> There were more than just a few posters. There were a _LOT_.
>

Another reason for them not to follow a user list, unfortunately :(

> Besides a "majority" is only 51%. So, if only just over half the SUSE
> users don't use it..........
......the remaining 49% are irrelevant?

With no real way to gauge this sort of thing, majority, minority, plurality,
quorum, etc become meaningless terms
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Billie Walsh 12-20-2008 08:00 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
Clay Weber wrote:
> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>
>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
>> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
>> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>>
>>
> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not usually
> follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for user-to-user
> support..
>
>

I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.

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Clay Weber 12-20-2008 09:29 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:
> Clay Weber wrote:
> > On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
> >> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
> >> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
> >> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
> >> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
> >
> > yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
> > usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for
> > user-to-user support..
>
> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
> of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
> direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
> take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
> If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
> and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
> down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
> off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.
>
> --
> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail business'
concepts do not really fit, as each individual person who contributes (in
whatever capacity) to an open source project does so for their own personal
reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are not necessarily
tied to 'customer service' if you will.

http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/category/kde/
the above link, and the comments, show some good insight from both sides in
relation to Lancelot.

Also please not that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the overall
subject at hand.

Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
where the developers can easily see them?

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Knapp 12-20-2008 10:27 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
> where the developers can easily see them?
>
> --
> Clay Weber

IMOHO, a person that voices their concerns IS a contributing user/dev.
I do open dev work and I do it because I like to write. But, it is
very nice to have others like what you write. I feel that all projects
should do research to learn what is needed/wanted by the users. It is
sad that more of this is not done and USED. A great place to start
this research is a list like this plus a few serverys of users. I
think the real problem is that programmers are not into this sort of
work and there are not enough people that are to go around. Maybe this
sort of work is not as fun as programming, especially if the
programmers don't respect and use it.
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"Art Alexion" 12-20-2008 11:03 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote:
> Following the link given by Joe in his thread I found this golden nugget:
>
>>
>> What's the deal with the K menu? It's big and ugly!

I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
any Start menu actually). I loved katapult, and can live with its
merger into alt+F2. What I miss is QuickLauncher. I can add
launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons are so big, they
take up too much space. Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
can fit two rows? I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
half take up on 4.1.


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Lindsay Mathieson 12-20-2008 11:05 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
dive into the unknown.

I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects). There's
a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud the
chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.


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Billie Walsh 12-20-2008 11:11 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
Clay Weber wrote:
> On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:
>
>> Clay Weber wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user lists.
>>>> They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to choose
>>>> SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it on the SUSE
>>>> users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and hate it.
>>>>
>>> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
>>> usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be for
>>> user-to-user support..
>>>
>> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
>> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of indication
>> of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going in the
>> direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I would
>> take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of thing.
>> If your a retail business and you stop listening to the customers needs
>> and start dictating to the customer, well, there's another store just
>> down the street. I've already seen many, at least threatening to, jump
>> off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's another interface available.
>>
>> --
>> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail business'
> concepts do not really fit, as each individual person who contributes (in
> whatever capacity) to an open source project does so for their own personal
> reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are not necessarily
> tied to 'customer service' if you will.
>
> http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/category/kde/
> the above link, and the comments, show some good insight from both sides in
> relation to Lancelot.
>
> Also please not that I am not necessarily disagreeing with you on the overall
> subject at hand.
>
> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their concerns
> where the developers can easily see them?
>
>

Why is it a bad analogy. The devs, one, two, a dozen, have a product
they want users, customers, to use. As long as the users are happy they
use the product of the devs labors. When the devs stop making a product
the users are happy with the users will go to another product. When the
users stop using the product of the devs labors what is the point of
making it any more. The devs provide a service to the users, a workable
desktop. The users "pay" for this with their "thanks" [ probably not
often enough ], bug reports, requests for new services, and suggestions
for improvement.

I'm not so sure I completely buy the "I only do it for myself" line.
They might do it for their own use, but then why put it out for the
world to use. There has to be some satisfaction that hundred, thousands,
millions (?) find pleasure in your labors. You do it about as much for
them as for yourself.

Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user". Some might
contribute more than others but almost everybody contributes in some
way. There have been many discussions on this list that have developed
into bug reports. Not always posted by the person that had the problem,
but a bug gets posted because they "contributed" their problem to the
list. Maybe today I have a problem and get help. Maybe tomorrow someone
else has a problem and I can help "fix" it in some small way. I think we
all contribute in some way. Maybe not directly, but still take part in
making this work.

I think we are having a nice discussion.

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"Art Alexion" 12-20-2008 11:25 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Lindsay Mathieson
<lindsay.mathieson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>

I always thought the phrase, "May you live in interesting times", was
a curse ;^)



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Billie Walsh 12-20-2008 11:52 PM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
Art Alexion wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 7:05 PM, Lindsay Mathieson
> <lindsay.mathieson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>>
>>
>
> I always thought the phrase, "May you live in interesting times", was
> a curse ;^)
>

Are you sure it isn't. Perhaps that's what he meant.

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Clay Weber 12-21-2008 12:45 AM

Kmenu and KDE4
 
On Sat December 20 2008 7:11:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:

> Why is it a bad analogy. The devs, one, two, a dozen, have a product
> they want users, customers, to use. As long as the users are happy they
> use the product of the devs labors. When the devs stop making a product
> the users are happy with the users will go to another product. When the
> users stop using the product of the devs labors what is the point of
> making it any more. The devs provide a service to the users, a workable
> desktop. The users "pay" for this with their "thanks" [ probably not
> often enough ], bug reports, requests for new services, and suggestions
> for improvement.

Because, no matter what the motivation, they are not truly beholden to end
users 100%. They don't demand or expect anything generally speaking, imo.

>
> I'm not so sure I completely buy the "I only do it for myself" line.
> They might do it for their own use, but then why put it out for the
> world to use. There has to be some satisfaction that hundred, thousands,
> millions (?) find pleasure in your labors. You do it about as much for
> them as for yourself.

"I only do it for myself" doesn't exclude that satisfaction, at least that's
how I am taking it to mean in many cases.

> Is there _really_ such a thing as a "non-contributing user".

My wife makes one ;)

> Some might
> contribute more than others but almost everybody contributes in some
> way. There have been many discussions on this list that have developed
> into bug reports. Not always posted by the person that had the problem,
> but a bug gets posted because they "contributed" their problem to the
> list. Maybe today I have a problem and get help. Maybe tomorrow someone
> else has a problem and I can help "fix" it in some small way. I think we
> all contribute in some way. Maybe not directly, but still take part in
> making this work.
>
> I think we are having a nice discussion.

So do I :)

> --
> Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.

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