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Old 12-21-2008, 02:13 AM
Steven Vollom
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
> dive into the unknown.
>
> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).
> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud
> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.

As little as I know, I agree completely. Playing it safe in the comfort zone
is like swamp water.

Steven

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Old 12-21-2008, 08:23 AM
"Jonas Norlander"
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

2008/12/21 Art Alexion <art.alexion@gmail.com>:
> I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
> any Start menu actually). I loved katapult, and can live with its
> merger into alt+F2. What I miss is QuickLauncher. I can add
> launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons are so big, they
> take up too much space. Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
> can fit two rows? I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
> that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
> half take up on 4.1.
>

There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061

/ Jonas

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Old 12-21-2008, 01:58 PM
Knapp
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Steven Vollom
<stevenvollom@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:
>> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces
>> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a
>> dive into the unknown.
>>
>> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).
>> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud
>> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.
>
> As little as I know, I agree completely. Playing it safe in the comfort zone
> is like swamp water.
>
> Steven

I too think what the KDE team is doing is great but that is not to say
it could not be done better. When it comes to any problems with KDE4,
for me it is because of distros adopting the work before it is ready
to work in a stable full featured way.

I still think that KDE4 might be ready for Kubuntu by the time a new
stable release is due out.

For the Kubuntu Devs to enter into an agreement to give us a stable
KDE system and then back out is wrong, they broke their word to the
users. 8.10 should have been a stable KDE3 system and then they might
have thought about switching to KDE4. None of this is a fault of the
KDE dev team!! Innovation has a place and that place is not in the
slot of an expected and planed stable release.

--
Douglas E Knapp

Amazon Gift Cards; let them choose!!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001078FFE?ie=UTF8&tag=seattlebujinkand&linkCode=a s2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001078FF E

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Old 12-21-2008, 06:56 PM
"Art Alexion"
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Jonas Norlander <jonorland@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061

Thanks!

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Old 12-21-2008, 11:24 PM
"Jonathan Jesse"
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Knapp <magick.crow@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Steven Vollom

<stevenvollom@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Saturday 20 December 2008 7:05:40 pm Lindsay Mathieson wrote:

>> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users interfaces

>> would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the dice and take a

>> dive into the unknown.

>>

>> I say this as a user (of KDE) and a developer (of unrelated projects).

>> There's a lot I would have done differently with KDE4 but overall I applaud

>> the chutzpah of the project. Interesting times are ahead for KDE.

>

> As little as I know, I agree completely. *Playing it safe in the comfort zone

> is like swamp water.

>

> Steven



I too think what the KDE team is doing is great but that is not to say

it could not be done better. When it comes to any problems with KDE4,

for me it is because of distros adopting the work before it is ready

to work in a stable full featured way.



I still think that KDE4 might be ready for Kubuntu by the time a new

stable release is due out.



For the Kubuntu Devs to enter into an agreement to give us a stable

KDE system and then back out is wrong, they broke their word to the

users. 8.10 should have been a stable KDE3 system and then they might

have thought about switching to KDE4. None of this is a fault of the

KDE dev team!! Innovation has a place and that place is not in the

slot of an expected and planed stable release.



--

Douglas E Knapp



Amazon Gift Cards; let them choose!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001078FFE?ie=UTF8&tag=seattlebujinkand&linkCode=a s2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B001078FF E




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I am confused as to what you mean by a stable release?* Are you confusing the terms Long Term Support (LTS) with stable?* 8.10 and 8.04 were not expected to be LTS'd for Kubuntu.* Don't know what the discussion for the next LTS is or what version # that would be.


JOnathan

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Old 12-21-2008, 11:51 PM
Billie Walsh
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

Jonas Norlander wrote:
> 2008/12/21 Art Alexion <art.alexion@gmail.com>:
>
>> I'm one of those people who don't even like the "classic" Kmenu (or
>> any Start menu actually). I loved katapult, and can live with its
>> merger into alt+F2. What I miss is QuickLauncher. I can add
>> launchers to the panel with KDE 4.1, but the icons are so big, they
>> take up too much space. Is there a way to make them smaller so that I
>> can fit two rows? I noticed with my 3.5 and 4.1 machines side by side
>> that 8 launchers on the 3.5 panel take up the same space as one and a
>> half take up on 4.1.
>>
>>
>
> There is a Quicklaunch plasmoid if you don't mind compile it yourself.
> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/QuickLauncher+Applet?content=78061
>
> / Jonas
>
>

Would be nice if it would install. Neither the general directions for
installing a plasmoid nor the installation instructions that come in the
file work.

--
Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans.


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Old 12-22-2008, 12:05 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 10:08:21 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>> You obviously weren't there for the mayhem. It was pretty ugly. They
>> called into question the parenthood of just about everyone at SUSE.
>> There were more than just a few posters. There were a _LOT_.
>>
>
> Another reason for them not to follow a user list, unfortunately
>
>> Besides a "majority" is only 51%. So, if only just over half the SUSE
>> users don't use it..........
> ......the remaining 49% are irrelevant?

Of course not, and nobody even suggested it.

> With no real way to gauge this sort of thing, majority, minority,
> plurality, quorum, etc become meaningless terms

They are, but that doesn't alter the fact that if large numbers of users
are screaming, something is very wrong. Sort of sounds like putting
KDE4 into Kubuntu 8.10...

fwiw, I rather like kickoff - the only thing wrong with it is that you
shouldn't have to click on anything to go down a level in the menu.
--
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:07 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 9:34:27 am Billie Walsh wrote:
>>
>> It's very obvious that the devs don't pay attention to any user
>> lists. They should. If they had they wouldn't have been so quick to
>> choose SUSE's Kickoff. There was a major flap when SUSE released it
>> on the SUSE users lists. The majority of SUSE users don't use it and
>> hate it.
>>
> yes, from what I hear from discussions with various devs, they do not
> usually follow <foo>-user lists, as they are generally supposed to be
> for user-to-user support..

What a pathetic argument - since when were developers not users?
Developers not following a user list because they just don't have the
time is understandable. Not following them because they're not relevant
is shocking, if true.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:12 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

Clay Weber wrote:

> On Sat December 20 2008 4:00:26 pm Billie Walsh wrote:

>> I don't know. I would think that if I was poring heart and soul into
>> something for others to use I would like to have some sort of
>> indication of their feelings about what I'm doing. If I'm not going
>> in the direction that is most beneficial then I would like to think I
>> would take it that direction. It's kind of a customer service type of
>> thing. If your a retail business and you stop listening to the
>> customers needs and start dictating to the customer, well, there's
>> another store just down the street. I've already seen many, at least
>> threatening to, jump off the KDE ship over this new KDE. There's
>> another interface available.
>
> Unfortunately, that is a bad analogy as the 'customer' and 'retail
> business' concepts do not really fit,

It certainly does. Many of us in corporate life have had the whole
concept of "customer service" drilled into us even when we don't have
identifiable customers, and there's a good reason for that - the model
works.

> as each individual person who contributes (in
> whatever capacity) to an open source project does so for their own
> personal reasons, even in a project as large in scope as KDE. They are
> not necessarily tied to 'customer service' if you will.

They are invariably in it for _something_. Even if it's only personal
gratification, where's the gratification in doing something that nobody
wants?

> Where/how do non-contributing users properly and sanely voice their
> concerns where the developers can easily see them?

It _has_ to be places like this, because the developers _can_ easily see
them. Otherwise it's too awkward for the users.
--
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:15 AM
Derek Broughton
 
Default Kmenu and KDE4

Lindsay Mathieson wrote:

> Users do not drive innovation. If it was left entirely to users
> interfaces would *never* change. Sometimes developers have to role the
> dice and take a dive into the unknown.

That's true, but the developers still have to be willing to listen to
the users, and separate out the "I hate this because I hate change"
complaints from the "I hate this because it's unintuitive, complicated,
and is giving me repetitive strain injuries". More than anything else,
the problem with KDE4 seems to be that there are NO developers who seem
willing to talk to users in a forum like this.
--
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