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Old 03-27-2012, 05:42 PM
James Cain
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

Jonathan's points below tend to sway me towards shipping with KTP. and ditching Kopete. All things being equal (I think there are valid arguments on both sides here), most usage cases today and going forward would have users wanting Facebook and GTalk integration as opposed to Groupwise, QQ, or Yahoo...



Also, security risks going forward on a 5 year LTS release would seem more likely to be promptly-addressed on an active code base.

This also means MANY more users, and likely a faster development rate than would otherwise be the case with KTP missing or only available by adding some obscure repo...



I do think that notification integration is needed, however.


- James Cain

_____________________________________________
Jonathan Riddell
jriddell at ubuntu.com


Mon Feb 13 19:00:56 UTC 2012
Previous message: kde telepathy?
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 07:53:05PM +0100, Pali Rohár wrote:
> Hi, I think that LTS version should have stable IM client. Kopete is old but
> more stable and tested.

What makes you think it is more stable?

There are many problems and bugs with Kopete not least it doesn't work for modern IM uses like GTalk, Facebook, Bonjour.

Kopete is unmaintained so it's problems won't go away, KDE Telepathy is and has active upstreams so we can poke them at problems we find.

Currently I'm minded to put kde-telepathy on the CD before feature freeze with the option to take it out if we find major problems before releasae.

Jonathan



On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> wrote:


On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 05:47:40 PM David Edmundson wrote:

> > I don't think we need to worry a lot about Kopete maintenance other than

> > security issues. *It does what it does. *It doesn't do what it doesn't

> > do. The code doesn't churn much from release to release, so there's not

> > a lot of risk that a year or two from now some serious performance bug

> > will be identified that someone will have to figure out without help

> > from (the almost dead) upstream.

>

> That's not entirely true in the case of IM. IM is a bit different

> because it relies on servers and protocols (often reversed engineered)

> which can randomly change. MSN (for example) are known to change their

> protocol and after a while not allow anyone using the older version.

>

> So a bug can "appear" later, which doesn't exist now. Which is awful

> but quite likely.



This is a good point, but I think my points about backportability of fixes from

later releases apply here too (up to the point where KDE Telepathy achieves

world domination).



Scott K



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Old 03-27-2012, 06:18 PM
Alex Fiestas
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 01:42:31 PM James Cain wrote:
> There are many problems and bugs with Kopete not least it doesn't work
> for modern IM uses like GTalk, Facebook, Bonjour.
Kopete supports Bonjour.

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Old 03-27-2012, 06:26 PM
Pali Rohár
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Tuesday 27 March 2012 20:18:42 Alex Fiestas wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 01:42:31 PM James Cain wrote:
> > There are many problems and bugs with Kopete not least it
> > doesn't work for modern IM uses like GTalk, Facebook,
> > Bonjour.
>
> Kopete supports Bonjour.

Kopete also support GTalk (with voice calls) and Facebook (thanks
to XMPP).

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Old 03-27-2012, 09:34 PM
Harald Sitter
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:47 PM, David Edmundson
<david@davidedmundson.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 05:29:57 PM Harald Sitter wrote:
>>> Lo'
>>>
>>> As we do not agree on whether we agree on a decision I'd like everyone
>>> to cast a vote in favor of KTP or Kopete as default for 12.04. The
>>> relevant discussion can be found at [1].
>>
>> My vote is for Kopete.
>>
>> There are four reasons for this:
>>
>> 1. *LTS is not the time to make a major technology change. *This should be
>> done in LTS +1.
>>
>> 2. *Not integrated to our desktop - I think Message Indicator support is
>> essential unless we drop this from our default panel layout. *There are other
>> feature parity issues, but I think this is the critical one.
>>
>> 3. *KTP upstream request (in this thread):
>>
>>> Personally I'd rather you kept Kopete for now but I can see why you
>>> don't want to maintain Kopete backends for another 3 years.
>>
>> 4. *Maintainability.
>>
>> That last point might require a bit of discussion as I think it's somewhat
>> backwards from the way most would look at it.
>>
>> I don't think we need to worry a lot about Kopete maintenance other than
>> security issues. *It does what it does. *It doesn't do what it doesn't do.
>> The code doesn't churn much from release to release, so there's not a lot of
>> risk that a year or two from now some serious performance bug will be
>> identified that someone will have to figure out without help from (the almost
>> dead) upstream.
>
> That's not entirely true in the case of IM. IM is a bit different
> because it relies on servers and protocols (often reversed engineered)
> which can randomly change. MSN (for example) are known to change their
> protocol and after a while not allow anyone using the older version.

Mind that kopete has outsourced MSN support to libmsn, so this
particular protocol is not a problem. However the point is still
valid, though given that kopete is part of many many distributions,
and therefore used by quite a few people, we would by no means be
alone with a desire to fix a protocol breakage. I personally would
count on the larger floss community to keep it working just as good as
now for at least a couple more years. KDE 3.5 is still getting fixes
despite upstream not maintaining it for 5 years now. Being
unmaintained and being uanble to support it in a distro release are in
parctise very different things. Another example that just came to mind
is xine...

HS

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:30 PM
Alex Fiestas
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 08:26:40 PM Pali Rohár wrote:
> Kopete also support GTalk (with voice calls) and Facebook (thanks
> to XMPP).

Well not really, you have jabber support but to configure gtalk/facebook you
have to do all kind of weird stuff you don't really want to make the user do.

about voice calls, never worked for me (and I tried few times), just like
sending files, that should work but only do some times.

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Old 03-27-2012, 10:46 PM
Pali Rohár
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Wednesday 28 March 2012 00:30:43 Alex Fiestas wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 08:26:40 PM Pali Rohár wrote:
> > Kopete also support GTalk (with voice calls) and Facebook
> > (thanks to XMPP).
>
> Well not really, you have jabber support but to configure
> gtalk/facebook you have to do all kind of weird stuff you
> don't really want to make the user do.
>
> about voice calls, never worked for me (and I tried few times),
> just like sending files, that should work but only do some
> times.

For GTalk voice calls:

Kopete has old version of libjingle included into svn tree.

Problem is that google (again) changed their API and seems that
actual libjingle code in kopete is incompatible with gmail web
plugin (and also incompatible with new version). Also google devs
made *.cpp files (audio output via mediastreamer) uncompilable in
last libjingle version (this is really possible). So this must be
fixed...

I sent patches which we have in kopete svn repository for
libjingle to google devs and all was included except one (which I
need to fix). When that patch will be accepted into upstream
libjingle I remove "modified old libjingle" from kopete svn and
voice call will depends only on external up-to-date google
package, which should work... I belive that there will be no more
incompatible changes in upstream libjingle library.

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Old 03-28-2012, 07:44 AM
Jonathan Riddell
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 05:29:57PM +0200, Harald Sitter wrote:
> KTP

+1 from me for KTP. I rarely found myself using Kopete and find myself running kde-telepathy all the time, mostly because it's easy to use with gtalk and facebook.

But I'm happy enough to be voted down by kubuntu-council on that, advantages either way.

Jonathan

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Old 03-28-2012, 06:31 PM
David Wonderly
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 08:44:15 AM Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 05:29:57PM +0200, Harald Sitter wrote:
> > KTP
>
> +1 from me for KTP. I rarely found myself using Kopete and find myself
> running kde-telepathy all the time, mostly because it's easy to use with
> gtalk and facebook.
>
> But I'm happy enough to be voted down by kubuntu-council on that,
advantages
> either way.
>
> Jonathan

While I see the benifits of having one over the other, the question should be
what one are we willing to support for the next 5 years? This is an LTS
release and if Kopete is going to dissipear in the next 5 years and be fully
replaced by KPT then I would think that KPT would be the way to go.

So, if KPT is being maintained and has developers and Kopete doesn't, I think
for a support view KPT would be the way to go. Either one has pros and cons.

Cheers!

Dave

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On 03/28/2012 12:56 PM, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> Joe, I am not sure how this effects SELinux labeling, if it does at all.

Afaikt this does not affect selinux in anyway since these are
configuration syntax changes for the most part.

If we take this example which is common as an default in various web
applications...

What used to be...

<Directory "/var/www/example">
Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
Order allow,deny
Allow from all
</Directory>

Will become...||

<Directory "/var/www/example">
Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
Require all granted
</Directory>

etc...

So what we as an project will need to do, is to update our documentation
and maintainers will have to update default apache configuration to
reflect the new configuration syntax for the application/package they
maintain.

Administrators will have to updated their apache configuration(s)
accordingly and or install the mod_access_compat module.

The new api changes can be found here [1].

JBG

http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/developer/new_api_2_4.html

--------------060307050403040503090209
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Ty=
pe">
</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
On 03/28/2012 12:56 PM, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:4F730A72.1060609@redhat.com" type=3D"cite">
<pre wrap=3D"">Joe, I am not sure how this effects SELinux labeling=
, if it does at all.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Afaikt this does not affect selinux in anyway since these are
configuration syntax changes for the most part.<br>
<br>
If we take this example which is common as an default in various web
applications...<br>
<br>
What used to be...<br>
<br>
&lt;Directory "/var/www/example"&gt;<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Options Indexes FollowSymLinks<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Order allow,deny<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Allow from all<br>
&lt;/Directory&gt;<br>
<br>
Will become...<code> </code><br>
<br>
&lt;Directory "/var/www/example"&gt;<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Options Indexes FollowSymLinks<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Require all granted <br>
&lt;/Directory&gt;<br>
<br>
etc...<br>
<br>
So what we as an project will need to do, is to update our
documentation and maintainers will have to update default apache
configuration=C2=A0 to reflect the new configuration syntax for the
application/package they maintain.<br>
<br>
Administrators will have to updated their apache configuration(s)
accordingly and or install the mod_access_compat module. <br>
<br>
The new api changes can be found here [1].<br>
<br>
JBG<br>
<br>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://httpd.apache.org/do=
cs/2.4/developer/new_api_2_4.html">http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/devel=
oper/new_api_2_4.html</a><br>
</body>
</html>

--------------060307050403040503090209--

--===============0232468266134248313==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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--===============0232468266134248313==--
 
Old 03-29-2012, 04:01 AM
Tres Finocchiaro
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

My vote is to move forward.
I haven't used an IM client for over a year, except at work, where we use Pidgin + SIPE for compatibility with Microsoft*Office Communicator.
Google Voice works just fine through the web browser, and I've given up on support for it on the desktop.

The indicator missing is*definitely*a loss, but as previous have said, it's very similar to dropping Pidgin or Gimp from Ubuntu. *First look at your target audience, then weigh the impact of removing Kopete against the gains of switching to KTP, then have the power users apt-get what's missing. *Empathy didn't work with Google Chat out-of-the-box, and somehow, people seemed to get by.


I've been sick of Kopete for so long, I'd even vote Pidgin over it.
-Tres

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:31 PM, David Wonderly <david.wonderly@kubuntu.org> wrote:

On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 08:44:15 AM Jonathan Riddell wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 05:29:57PM +0200, Harald Sitter wrote:

> > KTP

>

> +1 from me for KTP. *I rarely found myself using Kopete and find myself

> running kde-telepathy all the time, mostly because it's easy to use with

> gtalk and facebook.

>

> But I'm happy enough to be voted down by kubuntu-council on that,

advantages

> either way.

>

> Jonathan



While I see the benifits of having one over the other, the question should be

what one are we willing to support for the next 5 years? This is an LTS

release and if Kopete is going to dissipear in the next 5 years and be fully

replaced by KPT then I would think that KPT would be the way to go.



So, if KPT is being maintained and has developers and Kopete doesn't, I think

for a support view KPT would be the way to go. Either one has pros and cons.



Cheers!



Dave



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Old 03-29-2012, 11:44 AM
Jussi Kekkonen
 
Default KDE Telepathy or Kopete

A comment about " MSN (for example) are known to change their
protocol and after a while not allow anyone using the older version."

Kopete uses external library for msn/wlm for a reason, and thus far
there's been volunteers finding and fixing what's been changed on
other protocols (sans IRC, ofcourse)

So I don't think that's a valid argument on deciding this.

Me? I would love to see both, unfortunately. Kopete as default, KTP as
recommended alternative.

On 29 March 2012 07:01, Tres Finocchiaro <fatbuttlarry@gmail.com> wrote:
> My vote is to move forward.
>
> I haven't used an IM client for over a year, except at work, where we use
> Pidgin + SIPE for compatibility with Microsoft*Office Communicator.
>
> Google Voice works just fine through the web browser, and I've given up on
> support for it on the desktop.
>
> The indicator missing is*definitely*a loss, but as previous have said, it's
> very similar to dropping Pidgin or Gimp from Ubuntu. *First look at your
> target audience, then weigh the impact of removing Kopete against the gains
> of switching to KTP, then have the power users apt-get what's missing.
> *Empathy didn't work with Google Chat out-of-the-box, and somehow, people
> seemed to get by.
>
> I've been sick of Kopete for so long, I'd even vote Pidgin over it.
>
> -Tres
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:31 PM, David Wonderly <david.wonderly@kubuntu.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2012 08:44:15 AM Jonathan Riddell wrote:
>> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 05:29:57PM +0200, Harald Sitter wrote:
>> > > KTP
>> >
>> > +1 from me for KTP. *I rarely found myself using Kopete and find myself
>> > running kde-telepathy all the time, mostly because it's easy to use with
>> > gtalk and facebook.
>> >
>> > But I'm happy enough to be voted down by kubuntu-council on that,
>> advantages
>> > either way.
>> >
>> > Jonathan
>>
>> While I see the benifits of having one over the other, the question should
>> be
>> what one are we willing to support for the next 5 years? This is an LTS
>> release and if Kopete is going to dissipear in the next 5 years and be
>> fully
>> replaced by KPT then I would think that KPT would be the way to go.
>>
>> So, if KPT is being maintained and has developers and Kopete doesn't, I
>> think
>> for a support view KPT would be the way to go. Either one has pros and
>> cons.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> --
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--
Jussi Kekkonen, Tm_T

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