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Old 10-13-2011, 02:31 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

Kubuntu has prided itself on being a distro that is close to it's primary
upstream, KDE. For those of you going to UDS this time, I'd ask you to
consider if this is really the best view for our users.

I consider Kmail2/Akonadi to be a disaster in 4.7. I know it is working for
some people, but there are a LOT of people having a lot of problems.
Personally, I had sort of assumed that since this is the second major release
for Kmail2, it would be generally usable.

I've built modified kdepim/kdepim-runtime 4.4 packages for my own use. If I'd
known what the state of these packages would be in 4.7, I'd have recommended
we stick with 4.4 through the LTS. You might consider reverting even to 4.3
since that version had a full KDE4 Kaddressbook for 12.04. As it stands, I
don't think we should have included pim 4.7 in the release (my fault) and you
ought to consider reverting to a working version for the LTS.

Scott K

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:08 PM
Jussi Schultink
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

Hi all from the phone.


Is there a reason we dont just put a whole lot of effort this release into giving upstream the help they need to get these into good shape?


I know we are relatively short handed, but this is one of our prize applications, and it could be really great if we can contribute as well to it.


Please feel free to shoot me down if I have something totally wrong in my thought process.


Jussi

On 13 Oct 2011 17:57, "Aurélien Gâteau" <aurelien.gateau@canonical.com> wrote:
Le 13/10/2011 16:31, Scott Kitterman a écrit :


Kubuntu has prided itself on being a distro that is close to it's primary

upstream, KDE. *For those of you going to UDS this time, I'd ask you to

consider if this is really the best view for our users.



I consider Kmail2/Akonadi to be a disaster in 4.7. *I know it is working for

some people, but there are a LOT of people having a lot of problems.

Personally, I had sort of assumed that since this is the second major release

for Kmail2, it would be generally usable.



I've built modified kdepim/kdepim-runtime 4.4 packages for my own use. *If I'd

known what the state of these packages would be in 4.7, I'd have recommended

we stick with 4.4 through the LTS. *You might consider reverting even to 4.3

since that version had a full KDE4 Kaddressbook for 12.04. *As it stands, I

don't think we should have included pim 4.7 in the release (my fault) and you

ought to consider reverting to a working version for the LTS.




That makes sense to me, but migrating configuration, addressbook and mails from KMail2 + Akonadi back to KMail1 + KAddressBook is going to be a huge work I am afraid. Especially since this is not a subject where upstream will be happy to help :/




Aurélien



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Old 10-13-2011, 03:16 PM
Markus Slopianka
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Donnerstag 13 Oktober 2011 16:31:32 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Kubuntu has prided itself on being a distro that is close to it's primary
> upstream, KDE.

Oh c'mon, while that is repeated over and over again, was never true.
OpenOffice/LibreOffice is used instead of KOffice (or Calligra in the future),
Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,
Kubuntu uses Amarok instead of Juk,
Patches all over the place to be compatible with Ayatana stuff.


> Personally, I had sort of assumed that since this is the second major
> release for Kmail2, it would be generally usable.

It's not the second major release. It's a rebranded Kontact 4.6 because Kontact 4.6 was
released late in the SC 4.6 life cycle and the Kontact devs wanted to match the main SC
version number again.
Fedora and openSUSE also switched to SQLite as default Akonadi back-end because despite
not being the back-end suggested by upstream, it supposedly works better.

That said, nobody prevented you or Canonical from committing patches to upstream Kontact.


> As it stands, I don't think we should have included pim 4.7 in the
> release (my fault) and you ought to consider reverting to a working
> version for the LTS.

4.8 will be the actual second major release and according to Planet KDE blog posts 4.8
comes with significant improvements.
IMO you should consider making Kontact 4.8 available as regular update for 11.10.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:26 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Markus Slopianka <markus.s@kdemail.net> wrote:
> On Donnerstag 13 Oktober 2011 16:31:32 Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> Kubuntu has prided itself on being a distro that is close to it's primary
>> upstream, KDE.
>
> Oh c'mon, while that is repeated over and over again, was never true.
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice is used instead of KOffice (or Calligra in the future),

Is Calligra ready yet? Last I remember hearing, KOffice wasn't usable,
particularly for certain file formats.

> Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,

KDE4 versions have dolphin. I don't remember being able to find
anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
liking KDE3). If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
visible.

> Kubuntu uses Amarok instead of Juk,

Amarok isn't a KDE music player?

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:30 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:16:28 AM Markus Slopianka wrote:
> On Donnerstag 13 Oktober 2011 16:31:32 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > Kubuntu has prided itself on being a distro that is close to it's primary
> > upstream, KDE.
>
> Oh c'mon, while that is repeated over and over again, was never true.
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice is used instead of KOffice (or Calligra in the
> future), Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,
> Kubuntu uses Amarok instead of Juk,
> Patches all over the place to be compatible with Ayatana stuff.

There are exceptions. Some of them good. Some of them bad.

For all its limitations, OOo/KO are far more usable than KOffice. I'm hopeful
that Calligara will be different. I don't know anyone involved in Kubuntu
development who considers shipping OOo/LO as anything other than a workaround
for deficiencies in KOffice.

Personally I thought the d3lphin decision was a really bad idea (up there with
releasine with the current kdepim), but that was also in 2008.

Although not core KDE SC, Amarok is still KDE. We also use userconfig instead
of kuser. We do make some choices among the options in the KDE universe.

What patches? We make a few configuration changes and add one widget to the
default panel for Ayatana stuff. In some cases we shipped things a release
before upstream did, but the patches are all upstream.

> > Personally, I had sort of assumed that since this is the second major
> > release for Kmail2, it would be generally usable.
>
> It's not the second major release. It's a rebranded Kontact 4.6 because
> Kontact 4.6 was released late in the SC 4.6 life cycle and the Kontact
> devs wanted to match the main SC version number again.
> Fedora and openSUSE also switched to SQLite as default Akonadi back-end
> because despite not being the back-end suggested by upstream, it
> supposedly works better.
>
> That said, nobody prevented you or Canonical from committing patches to
> upstream Kontact.

I don't code in C++, so I am rather prevented.

> > As it stands, I don't think we should have included pim 4.7 in the
> > release (my fault) and you ought to consider reverting to a working
> > version for the LTS.
>
> 4.8 will be the actual second major release and according to Planet KDE
> blog posts 4.8 comes with significant improvements.
> IMO you should consider making Kontact 4.8 available as regular update for
> 11.10.

If it was going to take another year to get right, then it shoulnd't have been
released. IMO upstream should release working software.

Scott K

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:31 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:26:12 AM Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> > Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,
>
> KDE4 versions have dolphin. I don't remember being able to find
> anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
> few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
> liking KDE3). If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
> visible.

We did ship a KDE3 thing called d3lphin that was an early version of dolphin.
It was bad idea.

Scott K

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:26:12 AM Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
>> > Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,
>>
>> KDE4 versions have dolphin. I don't remember being able to find
>> anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
>> few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
>> liking KDE3). *If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
>> visible.
>
> We did ship a KDE3 thing called d3lphin that was an early version of dolphin.
> It was *bad idea.

Your other email said 2008, so was that when 8.04 came out and had a
KDE3 and a KDE4 version both at once? (how on earth did yall produce
two at once????) I only tried the KDE4 version of that. My other
attempts with KDE3 were in '07.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:38 PM
Markus Slopianka
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Donnerstag 13 Oktober 2011 17:26:12 Mackenzie Morgan wrote:

> Is Calligra ready yet?

No, it's beta.

> Last I remember hearing, KOffice wasn't usable,

Neither is OO/LO with the extremely buggy KDE integration that was proudly announced to be
written by a Kubuntu guy.


> I don't remember being able to find
> anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
> few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
> liking KDE3). If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
> visible.

Um, no.
d3lphin (a fork of a beta release of pre-SC4 Dolphin) was made default at some point.


> Amarok isn't a KDE music player?
Not the default one.

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:43 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

On Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:36:34 AM Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Scott Kitterman <ubuntu@kitterman.com>
wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:26:12 AM Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
> >> > Kubuntu releases with KDE3 replaced Konqueror with d3lphin,
> >>
> >> KDE4 versions have dolphin. I don't remember being able to find
> >> anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
> >> few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
> >> liking KDE3). If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
> >> visible.
> >
> > We did ship a KDE3 thing called d3lphin that was an early version of
> > dolphin. It was bad idea.
>
> Your other email said 2008, so was that when 8.04 came out and had a
> KDE3 and a KDE4 version both at once? (how on earth did yall produce
> two at once????) I only tried the KDE4 version of that. My other
> attempts with KDE3 were in '07.

Yes. It was in Hardy (maybe Gutsy). In any case, the idea of sticking close
to upstream is really a post KDE4 vision for Kubuntu that I seriously question
given that we're years into KDE4, KDE5 is started, and the transition to KDE4
was never properly finished (I thought I finally owned a system that I could run
Nepomuk on and see how well it works, but it's looking like I was wrong).

Scott K

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Old 10-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Steve Stalcup
 
Default UDS Considerations for Kubuntu

hi

On Oct 13, 2011, at 9:38 AM, Markus Slopianka <markus.s@kdemail.net> wrote:

> On Donnerstag 13 Oktober 2011 17:26:12 Mackenzie Morgan wrote:
>
>> Is Calligra ready yet?
>
> No, it's beta.
>
>> Last I remember hearing, KOffice wasn't usable,
>
> Neither is OO/LO with the extremely buggy KDE integration that was proudly announced to be
> written by a Kubuntu guy.
>
>
>> I don't remember being able to find
>> anything other than Konqueror for file management or web browsing the
>> few times I tried Kubuntu with KDE3 ("tried" because I didn't end up
>> liking KDE3). If dolphin was there, Konqueror was too and was more
>> visible.
>
> Um, no.
> d3lphin (a fork of a beta release of pre-SC4 Dolphin) was made default at some point.
>
>
>> Amarok isn't a KDE music player?
> Not the default one.

You are mr. meanie pants :P
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