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Old 03-12-2011, 02:17 PM
"Francisco T."
 
Default Kwin config for Gimp

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172615

El Sábado 12 Marzo 2011 16:02:09 Yuval Levy escribió:
> On March 12, 2011 09:33:13 AM Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > Would you please provide an explicit description of exactly what problem
> > you are having?
>
> * start Gimp from the K menu. It will open three windows: the main window,
> the toolbox window and the layers window.
> * switch to another application that covers those windows with ALT+TAB
> * switch back to Gimp with ALT+TAB
>
> expected behavior: the three windows listed above come to the forefront
>
> observed behavior: only the main window comes to the forefront
>
> this is on Natty. Also on Natty the three windows are not condensed into a
> single entry in the menu bar. IIRC, Lucid condenses them into a single
> entry but exhibit the same behavior so the user is even more confused by
> the disappearing windows. I don't have access to my Lucid workstation to
> test this now.
>
> HTH
> Yuv
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Old 03-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Kwin config for Gimp

On Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:02:09 am Yuval Levy wrote:

> On March 12, 2011 09:33:13 AM Scott Kitterman wrote:

> > Would you please provide an explicit description of exactly what problem

> > you are having?

>

> * start Gimp from the K menu. It will open three windows: the main window,

> the toolbox window and the layers window.

> * switch to another application that covers those windows with ALT+TAB

> * switch back to Gimp with ALT+TAB

>

> expected behavior: the three windows listed above come to the forefront

>

> observed behavior: only the main window comes to the forefront

>

> this is on Natty. Also on Natty the three windows are not condensed into a

> single entry in the menu bar. IIRC, Lucid condenses them into a single

> entry but exhibit the same behavior so the user is even more confused by

> the disappearing windows. I don't have access to my Lucid workstation to

> test this now.



OK. I see this. If Gimp works as multiple independent processes, I'm not sure what the window manager is supposed to do about that? I know of no other application that behaves this way.



I agree it's suboptimal, but I think unusable is an exaggeration.



Next question: What's the kwin setting that's supposed to change this?



Scott K
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:16 PM
Yuval Levy
 
Default Kwin config for Gimp

On March 12, 2011 10:21:27 AM Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:02:09 am Yuval Levy wrote:
> > expected behavior: the three windows listed above come to the forefront
> >
> > observed behavior: only the main window comes to the forefront
>
> OK. I see this.

I am happy I was able to show you this.


> If Gimp works as multiple independent processes, I'm not
> sure what the window manager is supposed to do about that? I know of no
> other application that behaves this way.

Personally I have learned to live with this (and many other) papercuts in
Kubuntu. It still suits my needs better than anything else out there. Thank
you for making it available.


> I agree it's suboptimal, but I think unusable is an exaggeration.

If you were using Gimp often enough, I would not have had to show you the
dissonance between actual and expected behavior. I am myself an occasional
user and can live with the current situation, but I can also imagine that for
those who work with Gimp on a daily basis, unusable is not an exaggeration. I
would like to use Gimp more if it was "more usable for me".

For a Gimp user the current behavior means a workaround of two extra steps,
one of which does not even have a keyboard shortcut. Not my definition of
usable.

It reminds me of a problem with a similar workaround in Kate:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246162

The workaround is an equally annoying two extra steps: change encoding to
UTF-16 and then back to UTF-8. If you are a programmer and use Kate
frequently, you may deem this as being unusable. A graphic designer would
"agree it's suboptimal, but think ubusable is an exaggeration."


> Next question: What's the kwin setting that's supposed to change this?

I just saw this thread and thought I can help you see what I see. I also
listed what I would like to see - the one liner "expected behavior" above. I
am not knowledgeable enough of the technology to say what, if anything, should
be changed in which software package or "standard". Please accept my apology
for leaving you with a hot potato in the hand: You'll have to figure out for
yourself what you want to do with my one liner "expected behavior" feedback.

It is your software distribution, you rule. I am thankful to you for
distributing it to me and I will keep using it (mostly) silently until I find
an alternative that better suits my needs. I will keep trying to contribute
where I can and where my contribution is welcome.

Yuv

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Old 03-12-2011, 06:34 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Kwin config for Gimp

On Saturday, March 12, 2011 02:16:37 pm Yuval Levy wrote:

> On March 12, 2011 10:21:27 AM Scott Kitterman wrote:

> > On Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:02:09 am Yuval Levy wrote:

> > > expected behavior: the three windows listed above come to the forefront

> > >

> > > observed behavior: only the main window comes to the forefront

> >

> > OK. I see this.

>

> I am happy I was able to show you this.

>

> > If Gimp works as multiple independent processes, I'm not

> > sure what the window manager is supposed to do about that? I know of no

> > other application that behaves this way.

>

> Personally I have learned to live with this (and many other) papercuts in

> Kubuntu. It still suits my needs better than anything else out there.

> Thank you for making it available.

>

> > I agree it's suboptimal, but I think unusable is an exaggeration.

>

> If you were using Gimp often enough, I would not have had to show you the

> dissonance between actual and expected behavior. I am myself an occasional

> user and can live with the current situation, but I can also imagine that

> for those who work with Gimp on a daily basis, unusable is not an

> exaggeration. I would like to use Gimp more if it was "more usable for

> me".



I was aware of the behavior, I just don't consider it a bug in Kwin. I always viewed it as an oddity of Gimp.



> For a Gimp user the current behavior means a workaround of two extra steps,

> one of which does not even have a keyboard shortcut. Not my definition of

> usable.



Based on the discussion in http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172615 (see the other response to my last message) it looks like upstream has a pretty set position on this. Given that Gimp is moving away from this unique model, I don't think it's something Kubuntu should deviate from upstream KDE over.



> It reminds me of a problem with a similar workaround in Kate:

> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=246162

>

> The workaround is an equally annoying two extra steps: change encoding to

> UTF-16 and then back to UTF-8. If you are a programmer and use Kate

> frequently, you may deem this as being unusable. A graphic designer would

> "agree it's suboptimal, but think ubusable is an exaggeration."

>

> > Next question: What's the kwin setting that's supposed to change this?

>

> I just saw this thread and thought I can help you see what I see. I also

> listed what I would like to see - the one liner "expected behavior" above.

> I am not knowledgeable enough of the technology to say what, if anything,

> should be changed in which software package or "standard". Please accept

> my apology for leaving you with a hot potato in the hand: You'll have to

> figure out for yourself what you want to do with my one liner "expected

> behavior" feedback.

>

> It is your software distribution, you rule. I am thankful to you for

> distributing it to me and I will keep using it (mostly) silently until I

> find an alternative that better suits my needs. I will keep trying to

> contribute where I can and where my contribution is welcome.



Thanks for clearing it up. Your contribution to this discussion is certainly welcome. I don't see a good immediate solution.



Scott K
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:16 AM
Mackenzie Morgan
 
Default Kwin config for Gimp

Is this behaviour actually unique to KDE? I thought I recalled it
having the exact same annoyance in GNOME.

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