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Old 12-21-2007, 12:07 PM
Sergey Rudchenko
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

I am completely agree with Krzysztof.

IMHO it's better to make stable as a mammoth's shit KDE3-based release.
I prefer to do not accumulate bugs in feature-racing.

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Old 12-21-2007, 02:23 PM
Sarah Hobbs
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

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Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
> Official statement from Canonical would help a lot here. Noone will
> seriuosly rely on such statements if they are not officially backed.

Riddell's statement should be regarded as official. He is the Canonical
face of Kubuntu. Presumably the tech board will also issue a statement.

>IMO 8.04 should be LTS release with mainly 3.5 support and with
> option to try out KDE 4, if someone wishes to do so, but with
> possibility of falling back to rock-stable 3.5 if some problems arise.
> I think KDE 4 can be used as stable base since version 4.1 appears and
> all young-age problems are tracked and solved. And when more apps using
> KDE 4 will appear.

This sort of discussion is useless. Kubuntu Hardy will not be LTS, as
per the tech board's decision. This will not change by people
complaining about it. The tech board would never have decided (and
disclosed) this without extensive thought. The task now is to decide
where Kubuntu should go, for this release, with the constraints that we
have, and will be discussed in tomorrow's meeting as well.

Hobbsee
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:45 PM
"Jonathan Jesse"
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Dec 21, 2007 10:23 AM, Sarah Hobbs <hobbsee@ubuntu.com> wrote:

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Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
> Official statement from Canonical would help a lot here. Noone will
> seriuosly rely on such statements if they are not officially backed.

Riddell's statement should be regarded as official. *He is the Canonical

face of Kubuntu. *Presumably the tech board will also issue a statement.


>IMO 8.04 should be LTS release with mainly 3.5 support and with
> option to try out KDE 4, if someone wishes to do so, but with
> possibility of falling back to rock-stable 3.5 if some problems arise.

> I think KDE 4 can be used as stable base since version 4.1 appears and
> all young-age problems are tracked and solved. And when more apps using
> KDE 4 will appear.

This sort of discussion is useless. *Kubuntu Hardy will not be LTS, as

per the tech board's decision. *This will not change by people
complaining about it. *The tech board would never have decided (and
disclosed) this without extensive thought. *The task now is to decide
where Kubuntu should go, for this release, with the constraints that we

have, and will be discussed in tomorrow's meeting as well.

Hobbsee
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I guess I'll have to search the meeting logs of the techboard, but I guess what I am wondering and others apparently as well is what happened to cause this change.* At UDS I was under the impression there was going to be a LTS support, and if you look at the spec page (
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyKde4) we weren't going to do a KDE4 release.* Why the change?* Just on the release schedule of KDE4 or other issues.** Was this decided at a techboard meeting then?

Seems a lot of people were suprised in regards to this announcement.
*
JOnathan
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Old 12-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Friday 21 December 2007 08:07, Sergey Rudchenko wrote:
> I am completely agree with Krzysztof.
>
> IMHO it's better to make stable as a mammoth's shit KDE3-based release.
> I prefer to do not accumulate bugs in feature-racing.

+1 from me too.

Scott K

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Old 12-21-2007, 04:09 PM
"Richard A. Johnson"
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Friday 21 December 2007, Sergey Rudchenko wrote:
[...]
| IMHO it's better to make stable as a mammoth's shit KDE3-based release.
| I prefer to do not accumulate bugs in feature-racing.

+1 on this idea, but are all of those who are criticizing our efforts, whom
don't already contribute, going to step up and help us make it "stable as
mammoth's shit?" Actually this is a bad analogy, because obviously mammoths
weren't all that stable, I haven't seen one walking around Chicago in
years

We aren't getting rid of KDE 3.5, we aren't putting any less focus on KDE 3.5,
and it is my understanding that we are still following through with the
specifications created at UDS Boston, we just won't have an LTS tag.

Does adding the LTS moniker really make people feel that much more safe? I
really wish we had numbers to see how many times an updated kdebase was
pulled from the repositories for Dapper. I think this could really help us
all decide on a positive medium.

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Old 12-21-2007, 04:51 PM
Sergey Rudchenko
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Richard A. Johnson wrote:
> On Friday 21 December 2007, Sergey Rudchenko wrote:
> [...]
> | IMHO it's better to make stable as a mammoth's shit KDE3-based release.
> | I prefer to do not accumulate bugs in feature-racing.
>
> +1 on this idea, but are all of those who are criticizing our efforts, whom
> don't already contribute, going to step up and help us make it "stable as
> mammoth's shit?" Actually this is a bad analogy, because obviously mammoths
> weren't all that stable, I haven't seen one walking around Chicago in
> years
>
I think that shit of all mammoths either deeply frozen in polar ice or
moved to stable form long time ago. It's stable anyway.
Maybe this phrase is not so good in english as in russian.
> We aren't getting rid of KDE 3.5, we aren't putting any less focus on KDE 3.5,
> and it is my understanding that we are still following through with the
> specifications created at UDS Boston, we just won't have an LTS tag.
>
> Does adding the LTS moniker really make people feel that much more safe? I
> really wish we had numbers to see how many times an updated kdebase was
> pulled from the repositories for Dapper. I think this could really help us
> all decide on a positive medium.
>
>
My post wasn't about LTS label at all. It was only about reliable OS
appropriate for everyday use, not for KDE4 bootstrapping.

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Old 12-21-2007, 05:22 PM
"Tom M. Shaw"
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Friday 21 December 2007 01:54:09 Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
>
> I think KDE 3.5 is not high-maintainance thing as it has been in Kubuntu
> for many years and there are no changes after 3.5.8. It is just keeping
> the state as it is.
>
There's more to Kubuntu that just the KDE 3.5 series, there's a lot that gets
updated every release that interacts with the GNOME side so a lot gets done
to keep the KDE things working. Obviously this isn't as bad as it used to be
but it still takes developer time. I think what a lot of people are
overlooking that in a sense you have the 'stable' 3.5 release for Kubuntu and
that is Gutsy and all it would take is the normal maintenance it is receiving
to satisfy those concerned.

>
> KDE 3.5 part does not require any significant changes. Just take what is
> already available in Gutsy and pass it on.
>

Again I think the passing it on is what is causing more work just to gain the
same KDE 3.5 desktop. It's going to happen anyway but with Gutsty you not
only have the same desktop but you get 6 months of testing and some backports
by lots of people. I know it's kind of a crazy idea but maybe a Kubuntu Gutsy
iso could be re-rolled out in the next few months or sometime. There's quite
a few updates that would make it a really good stable release and with very
few downloads after installation.

>
> Dapper is already 16 months old (close to 18 months of usual support
> lifecycle) and does not fit many user requirements, especially with
> newer hardware. People need another LTS release.
>
I'd just like to point out that what you're saying is that the the last LTS
release targeted for 3 years was only good for 1.5 years for a lot of users,
so it's kind of hard to convince anyone to make another 3 year release when
the last one might not have made it past the normal 18 month cycle. I think
the users that want stable are different than those who actually need 3 years
of support on something and every 6 month release fits the need of being
stable for the majority of the target audience.

In my view Kubuntu is the best KDE distro there is right now and with these
decisions being made to put out a KDE4 version it gets even better to a lot
of other people. I build KDE4 from trunk many times a week and it really
isn't in too bad of shape and in a few months it easily will be giving the
KDE3 desktop some serious competition for stability and usefulness.



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Old 12-21-2007, 08:16 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:23:03 +1100 Sarah Hobbs <hobbsee@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
>> Official statement from Canonical would help a lot here. Noone will
>> seriuosly rely on such statements if they are not officially backed.
>
>Riddell's statement should be regarded as official. He is the Canonical
>face of Kubuntu. Presumably the tech board will also issue a statement.
>
>>IMO 8.04 should be LTS release with mainly 3.5 support and with
>> option to try out KDE 4, if someone wishes to do so, but with
>> possibility of falling back to rock-stable 3.5 if some problems arise.
>> I think KDE 4 can be used as stable base since version 4.1 appears and
>> all young-age problems are tracked and solved. And when more apps using
>> KDE 4 will appear.
>
>This sort of discussion is useless. Kubuntu Hardy will not be LTS, as
>per the tech board's decision. This will not change by people
>complaining about it. The tech board would never have decided (and
>disclosed) this without extensive thought. The task now is to decide
>where Kubuntu should go, for this release, with the constraints that we
>have, and will be discussed in tomorrow's meeting as well.
>
Agreed (the decision is made), but the complaining does have a purpose.
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall community input being sought on this
change. While it's certainly their call, it would have been nice to be
asked. Personally this shift towards KDE4 makes Hardy less interesting to
me on the desktop. I think providing user/developer feedback is a quite
reasonable thing to do. Otherwise the impression would be that everyone is
happy.

I won't be able to make the meeting tomorrow. I really hope someone takes
good notes and publishes them.

Scott K

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Old 12-22-2007, 02:03 AM
Chandru
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

The decision is right in my opinion too.* Kubuntu was already a bit late in releasing KDE 4 live CD, when compared to openSuse and Debian.* KDE 4 is pretty much usable and at the current pace will be in an excellent form during the
4.0 release, though it may have some rough edges.* After all 3.5 itself has several annoying bugs right from ark's failure to extract .tar.gz files.

So including KDE 4 though it means no LTS is great.

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Think before you pirate low-quality software like Windows! *You have higher-quality free software like Linux!!
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Old 12-22-2007, 07:28 AM
Luka Renko
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Thursday 20 December 2007 18:05:33 Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> The release schedule for KDE 4 is now clear, and it will be released
> during the development cycle of Kubuntu 8.04. This new major release
> is already attracting significant interest from users, and is the
> focus of most KDE developer effort at this point. The majority of
> enquiries are now about KDE 4, and an unsupported Live CD of the 7.10
> platform with KDE 4 RC2 we released earlier this month was downloaded
> by a significant number of developers.

Agreed. On the other hand, we have to also understand that KDE 4.0 will be
only the first release in great series and will lack substantial components
(kdepim is most notable one), while most of kde4 extragear must-have
applications (amarok, digikam, koffice...) will also be several months behind
the kde 4.0 release.

> We regularly review each release during the development cycle, keeping
> an eye on the work that our upstreams are doing. From time to time,
> this work reaches a natural rest point resulting in a particularly
> stable release. For these releases, Canonical makes a commercial
> commitment to provide support for a longer term and these become known
> as "LTS" releases.

I personally think that LTS makes a lots of sense and know how important
stability is for some business deployments. They also show strong commitment
of the commercial entity (Canonical) to the project.
It is therefore even more important that decisions about Kubuntu LTS are not
done on short-notice, without validating the concerns of the community.
This statement somehow indicates that LTS decision is actually decision of
Canonical (which makes sense), while some other people have indicated that
this decision was taken by Technical Board (which I doubt, as I have not seen
any public discussion or official communication from TB which they normally
do).
I am Cc: this to TB in order to also get their view on this.

In any case, I feel that decision was:
- taken too late
(should be done before or on UDS)
- not discused with community
(UDS could be used for that, why we have Kubuntu Council/Members?)
- not communicated well enough (unclear reasoning)


> Since KDE 4 is a major change to the platform, it is not currently at
> one of these natural rest points so would not be suitable for long
> term support. Instead, due to the very high interest, development
> efforts will be directed towards KDE 4 and releasing Kubuntu 8.04 with
> the option of using either KDE 3.5 or KDE 4.

I think we completely agree that KDE 4.0 will not be ready for LTS, even more
I think it is best suited for universe for the time being, as it allows much
more people (MOTUs) to actively contribute to it.
Is it suggested that both version will be supported by Canonical for 18
months?

> Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able to upgrade through
> the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE 3.5 release series,
> and will receive the usual 18 months of support for that
> release. Future Kubuntu releases are likely to be based on the KDE 4
> series.

That is clear, but this non-LTS story complicates even more things for the
future. Open issues:
- when will Kubuntu gets next LTS version (if at all)?
- if there will be one, will it be before dapper support expires ?
(to allow LTS->LTS upgrade)
- will dapper be only upgradeble to hardy or also to hardy+1 directly
(LTS are claimed to be directly upgradeble only to +1 release or LTS+1
release)
- how will upgrade work from KDE 3.5 to KDE 4.x version?

I would personally suggest to whoever did the decision, to reconsider it. My
concern is that it may send wrong message to the market and as decision was
not discussed with commuity it may have negative effect on it.
And we all know that for Kubuntu, community is very important aspect, as
dedicated KDE full-time Canonical resources limited (even though that
Jonathan uses his super-powers regularly ;-)).

If this decision stays as it is, I will dive in options that we can take as
community, but I really would not like to spend much time on it until this is
clarified.

Regards,
Luka

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