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Old 12-22-2007, 07:58 AM
Krzysztof Lichota
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Luka Renko napisał(a):
> Agreed. On the other hand, we have to also understand that KDE 4.0 will be
> only the first release in great series and will lack substantial components
> (kdepim is most notable one), while most of kde4 extragear must-have
> applications (amarok, digikam, koffice...) will also be several months behind
> the kde 4.0 release.

No to mention other third-party apps from kde-apps.org, lacking
documentation, incomplete translations, howtos, etc. It will take much
take to catch up.

> I personally think that LTS makes a lots of sense and know how important
> stability is for some business deployments. They also show strong commitment
> of the commercial entity (Canonical) to the project.
> It is therefore even more important that decisions about Kubuntu LTS are not
> done on short-notice, without validating the concerns of the community.
> This statement somehow indicates that LTS decision is actually decision of
> Canonical (which makes sense), while some other people have indicated that
> this decision was taken by Technical Board (which I doubt, as I have not seen
> any public discussion or official communication from TB which they normally
> do).
> I am Cc: this to TB in order to also get their view on this.
>
> In any case, I feel that decision was:
> - taken too late
> (should be done before or on UDS)
> - not discused with community
> (UDS could be used for that, why we have Kubuntu Council/Members?)
> - not communicated well enough (unclear reasoning)

I couldn't agree more.

>> Since KDE 4 is a major change to the platform, it is not currently at
>> one of these natural rest points so would not be suitable for long
>> term support. Instead, due to the very high interest, development
>> efforts will be directed towards KDE 4 and releasing Kubuntu 8.04 with
>> the option of using either KDE 3.5 or KDE 4.
>
> I think we completely agree that KDE 4.0 will not be ready for LTS, even more
> I think it is best suited for universe for the time being, as it allows much
> more people (MOTUs) to actively contribute to it.

I think KDE 4 will not be suitable for LTS till 9.04 release. 8.04 is
the last chance to get LTS before switching to KDE 4.

So decision to not make 8.04 an LTS means no LTS for Kubuntu in very
long time. And the message to users of commercial deployments is clear -
do not use Kubuntu for commercial deployments, because you will not get
the same treatment as with Ubuntu. So Kubuntu now becomes not 2nd class
citizen as currently, but 3rd class citizen.

>> Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able to upgrade through
>> the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE 3.5 release series,
>> and will receive the usual 18 months of support for that
>> release. Future Kubuntu releases are likely to be based on the KDE 4
>> series.
>
> That is clear, but this non-LTS story complicates even more things for the
> future. Open issues:
> - when will Kubuntu gets next LTS version (if at all)?
> - if there will be one, will it be before dapper support expires ?
> (to allow LTS->LTS upgrade)
> - will dapper be only upgradeble to hardy or also to hardy+1 directly
> (LTS are claimed to be directly upgradeble only to +1 release or LTS+1
> release)
> - how will upgrade work from KDE 3.5 to KDE 4.x version?
>
> I would personally suggest to whoever did the decision, to reconsider it. My
> concern is that it may send wrong message to the market and as decision was
> not discussed with commuity it may have negative effect on it.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

Krzysztof Lichota


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Old 12-22-2007, 08:04 AM
Krzysztof Lichota
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Sarah Hobbs napisał(a):
> Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
>> Official statement from Canonical would help a lot here. Noone will
>> seriuosly rely on such statements if they are not officially backed.
>
> Riddell's statement should be regarded as official. He is the Canonical
> face of Kubuntu. Presumably the tech board will also issue a statement.

I was talking about the statement that "we will issue security updates
for 3 years anyway even if it is not LTS".

>> IMO 8.04 should be LTS release with mainly 3.5 support and with
>> option to try out KDE 4, if someone wishes to do so, but with
>> possibility of falling back to rock-stable 3.5 if some problems arise.
>> I think KDE 4 can be used as stable base since version 4.1 appears and
>> all young-age problems are tracked and solved. And when more apps using
>> KDE 4 will appear.
>
> This sort of discussion is useless. Kubuntu Hardy will not be LTS, as
> per the tech board's decision. This will not change by people
> complaining about it.

If voice of the community is not taken into account, I think there is
something seriously wrong about the process.

Krzysztof Lichota


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Old 12-22-2007, 08:17 AM
Krzysztof Lichota
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Tom M. Shaw napisał(a):
> On Friday 21 December 2007 01:54:09 Krzysztof Lichota wrote:
>> I think KDE 3.5 is not high-maintainance thing as it has been in Kubuntu
>> for many years and there are no changes after 3.5.8. It is just keeping
>> the state as it is.
>>
> There's more to Kubuntu that just the KDE 3.5 series, there's a lot that gets
> updated every release that interacts with the GNOME side so a lot gets done
> to keep the KDE things working.

Could you elaborate more on that? I do not see much interaction points
with Gnome in KDE.


>> KDE 3.5 part does not require any significant changes. Just take what is
>> already available in Gutsy and pass it on.
>
> Again I think the passing it on is what is causing more work just to gain the
> same KDE 3.5 desktop. It's going to happen anyway but with Gutsty you not
> only have the same desktop but you get 6 months of testing and some backports
> by lots of people. I know it's kind of a crazy idea but maybe a Kubuntu Gutsy
> iso could be re-rolled out in the next few months or sometime. There's quite
> a few updates that would make it a really good stable release and with very
> few downloads after installation.
>
>> Dapper is already 16 months old (close to 18 months of usual support
>> lifecycle) and does not fit many user requirements, especially with
>> newer hardware. People need another LTS release.
>>
> I'd just like to point out that what you're saying is that the the last LTS
> release targeted for 3 years was only good for 1.5 years for a lot of users,
> so it's kind of hard to convince anyone to make another 3 year release when
> the last one might not have made it past the normal 18 month cycle. I think
> the users that want stable are different than those who actually need 3 years
> of support on something and every 6 month release fits the need of being
> stable for the majority of the target audience.

You forget that not everybody jumped into 6.06 train. If people would
like to start using Kubuntu now, they can choose 18 months (well, 16
months already) of support for Gutsy or... 16 months for Dapper. No
option to get 3 years. With Ubuntu they will at least get LTS next
spring. IMO LTS releases should be issued every 1.5 - 2 years with 3
years support - this would be the best way to catch long-support users.

> In my view Kubuntu is the best KDE distro there is right now and with these
> decisions being made to put out a KDE4 version it gets even better to a lot
> of other people. I build KDE4 from trunk many times a week and it really
> isn't in too bad of shape and in a few months it easily will be giving the
> KDE3 desktop some serious competition for stability and usefulness.

Do you really think that .0.0 release can be compared to .5.8 release in
terms of stability?

Krzysztof Lichota




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Old 12-22-2007, 02:53 PM
Toby Dickenson
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Jonathan Riddell wrote:

> Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able to upgrade through
> the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE 3.5 release series,
> and will receive the usual 18 months of support for that release.

"The ususal path". Hmmm. What exactly is the upgrade path from 6.06?

If 8.04 had been LTS then I would have expected support for a direct upgrade
which does not need each successive non-LTS upgrade. If there is no direct
upgrade option then we may opt for the backup+reinstall approach, which is
something we need to start planning soon.

Some background; we chose to stick with the LTS release not because we
needed 3 years of stability, but because we couldnt keep up with a 6 month
upgrade treadmill.





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Old 12-22-2007, 03:46 PM
Sebastian Kuegler
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Thursday 20 December 2007 18:05:33 Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able to upgrade through
> the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE 3.5 release series,
> and will receive the usual 18 months of support for that
> release. Future Kubuntu releases are likely to be based on the KDE 4
> series.

I'm a bit confused. Does this mean for _new_ installations, the default will
be KDE4?

Other than that, I feel sorry for the whole Kubuntu team for the lack of
recognition of the stability of a 3.5-based release.
--
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Old 12-22-2007, 05:04 PM
Stephan Hermann
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Hi Sebas,


Am Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:46:30 +0100
schrieb Sebastian Kuegler <sebas@kde.org>:

> On Thursday 20 December 2007 18:05:33 Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able to upgrade through
> > the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE 3.5 release
> > series, and will receive the usual 18 months of support for that
> > release. Future Kubuntu releases are likely to be based on the KDE 4
> > series.
>
> I'm a bit confused. Does this mean for _new_ installations, the
> default will be KDE4?

I don't think so, and it's not wise to have a still buggy kde 4 desktop
as a default.

>
> Other than that, I feel sorry for the whole Kubuntu team for the lack
> of recognition of the stability of a 3.5-based release.

/me too...from the marketing PoV it would be better to have a LTS
release then nothing.
Yeah, there is no deal about the LTS, and I wonder why the decision was
made..but just for having developer kde4 on board doesn't mean that we
shouldn't do an LTS...


The only point I can think of, why we shouldn't have an LTS at all, is
the lack of development resource for supporting a beast like kde for 5
years, which means, there is and won't be a change in the thinking of
hiring paid devs for kubuntu...

And I know, that Riddell is really at his limits...

sh

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Old 12-23-2007, 03:51 PM
joseph lockhart
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

>> Users currently running Kubuntu 6.06 will be able
>>to upgrade through
>> the usual path to Kubuntu 8.04, keeping to the KDE
>>3.5 release
>> series,
>> and will receive the usual 18 months of support for
>>that release.
>
>"The ususal path". Hmmm. What exactly is the upgrade
>path from 6.06?
>
>If 8.04 had been LTS then I would have expected
>support for a direct
> upgrade
>which does not need each successive non-LTS upgrade.
>If there is no
> direct
>upgrade option then we may opt for the
>backup+reinstall approach, which
> is
>something we need to start planning soon.

a thought would be to change how repositories are
tagged, so that we would have a STABLE, UNSTABLE,
TESTING, and LTS in addition to the GIBBON, HARDY, etc
of releases, that way those who want LTS install once
and setting repositories to LTS don't have to worry
(other than other update woes), those running STABLE
will be running STABLE regardless of which release it
is (gibbon now, hardy later).

anyway my $0.02

jwlockhart

Registered Linux User #458799
Registered Kubuntu User #19678
this user is penguin powered


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Old 12-24-2007, 09:43 AM
Scott James Remnant
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

Hi Luka,

The Technical Board was not formally involved[0] in the decision whether
or not to release Kubuntu 8.04 as an LTS. "LTS" is a commercial support
commitment provided by Canonical Ltd, who shoulder the financial and
administrative burden of doing so; as such, it is entirely their
decision as to whether or not they provide that support for a particular
release.

They make the decision on a purely commercial basis, determined by
factors such as: the stability of the release in question; the
supportability of the release; the commercial interest in the release,
etc.

Given that, and since the remainder are not technical in nature or
resolving a technical dispute, the Technical Board cannot answer your
questions.


However since I was involved in the decision-making process at Canonical
as part of my job as leader of the Ubuntu Desktop team, I will attempt
to answer your questions as best I can. The rest of this e-mail shall
not be considered a reply from the Technical Board.


Kubuntu 8.04 comes at a difficult time in the KDE release cycle, it
arrives just after the dawn of a major new release of the platform which
is a very significant new amount of work. This is a new platform that
is receiving a significant amount of attention, both from its developers
and from its users.

Questions that were asked:

Will KDE 4 be stable enough to support for the term of the release?
I've not seen anybody who believes that this would be the case; a
long-term supported release would have to be based on the stable KDE 3.5
series. This gives us the second question:

Will a bug in KDE 3.5 receive upstream attention in March 2011?
In order for Canonical to make a commercial commitment to their
customers, who have signed contracts and terms of service with them,
they need to be sure that they can honour the terms of their agreements.
The KDE upstream position appears clear, KDE 4 is the focus of
developer attention; KDE 3.5 will be supported as long as KDE 4 isn't
suitable for support.
Given the attention being paid to KDE 4, it is difficult to believe
that this will not be the preferred release in three years time. Thus
it is difficult to guarantee that upstream will still support the
current stable series for the timescale required.

Is the development community able to sufficiently test the new release?
Again, in order for the commercial commitment to be made, Canonical
has to believe that the development community (which includes its own
staff) are able to provide sufficient testing of both the new release
and upgrades between older releases and the newer one.
This judgement is both based on the number of active testers for the
previous release according to the ISO test tracker, and the relative
popularity of the available packages/seeds.
The number of Kubuntu developers testing releases and recording their
results is right now at an all-time low, this makes it difficult to
guarantee sufficient test coverage of installs and most importantly
upgrades.
Likewise the current download interest is entirely directed towards
KDE 4 packages and CD images.


I hope that provides some insight as to how this decision was made,
expanding on the statements that Jonathan made in his announcement.

As to your questions about the timing, method and discussion for the
decision:

The community's input was actually sought on several points, and many
members of the Kubuntu community provided answers and insight that
contributed to the decision. It is difficult for this decision to be
made by the community because the community's stake in Kubuntu is one of
personal achievement and pride, whereas Canonical's is financial and of
commercial commitments. Had Canonical simply asked the community
"should Kubuntu 8.04 be an LTS?", the answer would not be based on the
same terms: instead more direct questions were asked such as "how long
will upstream work on KDE 3.5?"

The timing of the decision was simply based on when it was clear from
the KDE release schedule that it was inevitable that KDE 4 would be
released before Kubuntu 8.04. Since the KDE upstream release schedule
is not in alignment with Ubuntu's own, it is difficult to align such
decisions to it.

As to the unclear reasoning behind the decision, there is insufficient
argument in your e-mail to answer that since you don't discuss where you
feel the communication is unclear. The announcement states that the
reason is that KDE 4 will be released before Kubuntu 8.04, that it is
the focus of user and developer attention, and that this upheaval is
contrary to Canonical's requirements for an LTS. This is the reasoning.


Your other questions only have answers in further questions:

Kubuntu will be suitable for an LTS when the KDE packages it contains
are expected to be stable, maintained and supported for three years
afterwards. (This could be considered LTS requirement zero; 6.06 came
at a perfect time, it is hopeful that KDE 3.5 will at least have some
remaining support and maintenance for the next 18 months while it
remains supported.)

No claim or commitment has been made to how LTS upgrades will work; the
intent is that one LTS is directly upgradable to the next, however this
requires extensive testing on behalf of the development community.

I cannot answer KDE 3.5 to KDE 4.x upgrade questions, those are
technical.

Scott

[0] notwithstanding some of its members being involved as part of their
job at Canonical
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Old 12-24-2007, 02:05 PM
"Edward Dunagin"
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

I have DELETED 28 emails for this thread, and this will be 29 and 30.

What a waste.................

Edward Dunagin-Dunigan-Dunnigan
4646 Glenwood Drive
Bozeman, MT 59718
mobile 406-570-0992
Landline 406-556-7282
http://doas.montanalinux.org

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Old 12-24-2007, 02:29 PM
"Jonathan Jesse"
 
Default Kubuntu LTS

On Dec 24, 2007 5:43 AM, Scott James Remnant <scott@ubuntu.com> wrote:

Hi Luka,

The Technical Board was not formally involved[0] in the decision whether
or not to release Kubuntu
8.04 as an LTS. *"LTS" is a commercial support
commitment provided by Canonical Ltd, who shoulder the financial and
administrative burden of doing so; as such, it is entirely their
decision as to whether or not they provide that support for a particular

release.

They make the decision on a purely commercial basis, determined by
factors such as: the stability of the release in question; the
supportability of the release; the commercial interest in the release,

etc.

Given that, and since the remainder are not technical in nature or
resolving a technical dispute, the Technical Board cannot answer your
questions.


However since I was involved in the decision-making process at Canonical

as part of my job as leader of the Ubuntu Desktop team, I will attempt
to answer your questions as best I can. *The rest of this e-mail shall
not be considered a reply from the Technical Board.


Kubuntu
8.04 comes at a difficult time in the KDE release cycle, it
arrives just after the dawn of a major new release of the platform which
is a very significant new amount of work. *This is a new platform that
is receiving a significant amount of attention, both from its developers

and from its users.

Questions that were asked:

Will KDE 4 be stable enough to support for the term of the release?
*I've not seen anybody who believes that this would be the case; a
long-term supported release would have to be based on the stable KDE
3.5
series. *This gives us the second question:

Will a bug in KDE 3.5 receive upstream attention in March 2011?
*In order for Canonical to make a commercial commitment to their
customers, who have signed contracts and terms of service with them,

they need to be sure that they can honour the terms of their agreements.
*The KDE upstream position appears clear, KDE 4 is the focus of
developer attention; KDE 3.5 will be supported as long as KDE 4 isn't

suitable for support.
*Given the attention being paid to KDE 4, it is difficult to believe
that this will not be the preferred release in three years time. *Thus
it is difficult to guarantee that upstream will still support the

current stable series for the timescale required.

Is the development community able to sufficiently test the new release?
*Again, in order for the commercial commitment to be made, Canonical
has to believe that the development community (which includes its own

staff) are able to provide sufficient testing of both the new release
and upgrades between older releases and the newer one.
*This judgement is both based on the number of active testers for the
previous release according to the ISO test tracker, and the relative

popularity of the available packages/seeds.
*The number of Kubuntu developers testing releases and recording their
results is right now at an all-time low, this makes it difficult to
guarantee sufficient test coverage of installs and most importantly

upgrades.
*Likewise the current download interest is entirely directed towards
KDE 4 packages and CD images.


I hope that provides some insight as to how this decision was made,
expanding on the statements that Jonathan made in his announcement.


As to your questions about the timing, method and discussion for the
decision:

The community's input was actually sought on several points, and many
members of the Kubuntu community provided answers and insight that

contributed to the decision. *It is difficult for this decision to be
made by the community because the community's stake in Kubuntu is one of
personal achievement and pride, whereas Canonical's is financial and of

commercial commitments. *Had Canonical simply asked the community
"should Kubuntu 8.04 be an LTS?", the answer would not be based on the
same terms: instead more direct questions were asked such as "how long

will upstream work on KDE 3.5?"

The timing of the decision was simply based on when it was clear from
the KDE release schedule that it was inevitable that KDE 4 would be
released before Kubuntu 8.04. *Since the KDE upstream release schedule

is not in alignment with Ubuntu's own, it is difficult to align such
decisions to it.

As to the unclear reasoning behind the decision, there is insufficient
argument in your e-mail to answer that since you don't discuss where you

feel the communication is unclear. *The announcement states that the
reason is that KDE 4 will be released before Kubuntu 8.04, that it is
the focus of user and developer attention, and that this upheaval is

contrary to Canonical's requirements for an LTS. *This is the reasoning.


Your other questions only have answers in further questions:

Kubuntu will be suitable for an LTS when the KDE packages it contains

are expected to be stable, maintained and supported for three years
afterwards. *(This could be considered LTS requirement zero; 6.06 came
at a perfect time, it is hopeful that KDE 3.5 will at least have some

remaining support and maintenance for the next 18 months while it
remains supported.)

No claim or commitment has been made to how LTS upgrades will work; the
intent is that one LTS is directly upgradable to the next, however this

requires extensive testing on behalf of the development community.

I cannot answer KDE 3.5 to KDE 4.x upgrade questions, those are
technical.

Scott

[0] notwithstanding some of its members being involved as part of their

* *job at Canonical
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Scott,
*
Thanks for the great response.* I think what got lost in the message was the difference between the Technical Board and Canonical in this decision making process. Thanks for the great email.
*
And now make it message 31 for deletion.
*
Jonathan
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