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Old 09-13-2008, 03:43 AM
"John-Scott Atlakson"
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

Hi all,

I'm just a lurker on the list as a bleeding edge end-user.

As a bleeding edge user, I gave the 8.04 re-spin with KDE 4.0 a try, but there were too many issues at the time, so I went back to 3.5.x and have been holding out for Intrepid and the hopefully more polished/finished KDE 4.1.x.



One simple annoyance I had hoped to see eliminated is that when you click on the Leave menu, you choose between Logout, Restart, Shutdown etc. But clicking on any of these options just brings up another dialog providing the exact same options. I thought with the 8.04 respin that I had just goofed stuff up and that KDE 3.5 and 4.x were just talking at cross purposes but I see this behavior in a clean install of the most recent Intrepid Alpha 4.



Can the secondary menu be eliminated easily, or is this more of an upstream issue? It seems a shame after all the UI improvements to have this completely redundant step boogering up the interface.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the time and effort that others spend scratching their respective itches here. I'm a Python developer trying to learn PyQt development on the side, but so far have had little time outside of my day job to make much progress, so I apologize for only critiquing without supplying a patch.


Cheers,
John-Scott



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Old 09-13-2008, 05:21 AM
"Al Twohill"
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 3:43 PM, John-Scott Atlakson
<john.scott.atlakson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just a lurker on the list as a bleeding edge end-user.
>

Also, mainly a lurker

> As a bleeding edge user, I gave the 8.04 re-spin with KDE 4.0 a try, but
> there were too many issues at the time, so I went back to 3.5.x and have
> been holding out for Intrepid and the hopefully more polished/finished KDE
> 4.1.x.
>
> One simple annoyance I had hoped to see eliminated is that when you click on
> the Leave menu, you choose between Logout, Restart, Shutdown etc. But
> clicking on any of these options just brings up another dialog providing the
> exact same options. I thought with the 8.04 respin that I had just goofed
> stuff up and that KDE 3.5 and 4.x were just talking at cross purposes but I
> see this behavior in a clean install of the most recent Intrepid Alpha 4.
>
> Can the secondary menu be eliminated easily, or is this more of an upstream
> issue? It seems a shame after all the UI improvements to have this
> completely redundant step boogering up the interface.
>

Well, OpenSUSE seems to have dealt with it fine - you click your
option in the Leave menu, and the dialog that pops up is only the one
you chose, and after 30 secs automatically does what you chose
anyway... very simple.

At the moment I'm completely torn - I love apt, and *buntu in general,
but to me OpenSUSE highlights everything that is missing in Kubuntu -
polish, polish and more polish. From the moment your computer comes
out of it's POST you have a high-resolution, clean and well thought
out interface (including the multi-boot selector).

I wish Canonical would spend just half the time it does on Ubuntu as Kubuntu....

> Anyway, I do appreciate all the time and effort that others spend scratching
> their respective itches here. I'm a Python developer trying to learn PyQt
> development on the side, but so far have had little time outside of my day
> job to make much progress, so I apologize for only critiquing without
> supplying a patch.

Heh, I'm in the same boat as well. If only there were a few more hours
in a day.... but I thought I might as well add my $0.02...

>
> Cheers,
> John-Scott
>
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel
>
>

Al

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Old 09-13-2008, 05:34 AM
claydoh
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

On Friday 12 September 2008 11:43:42 pm John-Scott Atlakson wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just a lurker on the list as a bleeding edge end-user.
>
> As a bleeding edge user, I gave the 8.04 re-spin with KDE 4.0 a try, but
> there were too many issues at the time, so I went back to 3.5.x and have
> been holding out for Intrepid and the hopefully more polished/finished KDE
> 4.1.x.
>
> One simple annoyance I had hoped to see eliminated is that when you click
> on the Leave menu, you choose between Logout, Restart, Shutdown etc. But
> clicking on any of these options just brings up another dialog providing
> the exact same options. I thought with the 8.04 respin that I had just
> goofed stuff up and that KDE 3.5 and 4.x were just talking at cross
> purposes but I see this behavior in a clean install of the most recent
> Intrepid Alpha 4.
>
> Can the secondary menu be eliminated easily, or is this more of an upstream
> issue? It seems a shame after all the UI improvements to have this
> completely redundant step boogering up the interface.

That is configurable in System Settings in the Session Management area.
Fixing this is on the devs' todo list
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo it just hasn't been done yet.

> Anyway, I do appreciate all the time and effort that others spend
> scratching their respective itches here. I'm a Python developer trying to
> learn PyQt development on the side, but so far have had little time outside
> of my day job to make much progress, so I apologize for only critiquing
> without supplying a patch.
>
> Cheers,
> John-Scott

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Old 09-13-2008, 07:29 AM
Terence Simpson
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

claydoh wrote:
> On Friday 12 September 2008 11:43:42 pm John-Scott Atlakson wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm just a lurker on the list as a bleeding edge end-user.
>>
>> As a bleeding edge user, I gave the 8.04 re-spin with KDE 4.0 a try, but
>> there were too many issues at the time, so I went back to 3.5.x and have
>> been holding out for Intrepid and the hopefully more polished/finished KDE
>> 4.1.x.
>>
>> One simple annoyance I had hoped to see eliminated is that when you click
>> on the Leave menu, you choose between Logout, Restart, Shutdown etc. But
>> clicking on any of these options just brings up another dialog providing
>> the exact same options. I thought with the 8.04 respin that I had just
>> goofed stuff up and that KDE 3.5 and 4.x were just talking at cross
>> purposes but I see this behavior in a clean install of the most recent
>> Intrepid Alpha 4.
>>
>> Can the secondary menu be eliminated easily, or is this more of an upstream
>> issue? It seems a shame after all the UI improvements to have this
>> completely redundant step boogering up the interface.
>>
>
> That is configurable in System Settings in the Session Management area.
> Fixing this is on the devs' todo list
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo it just hasn't been done yet.
>
>
It's not as as easy to fix as you think, if you disable it globally then
those that use the Application Launcher Menu (rather than kickoff) can't
logout (or shutdown/restart).
See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/187450

Terence Simpson


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Old 09-13-2008, 01:49 PM
"Christian A. Reiter"
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

Am Samstag, 13. September 2008 09:29:20 schrieb Terence Simpson:
> > That is configurable in System Settings in the Session Management area.
> > Fixing this is on the devs' todo list
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo it just hasn't been done yet.
>
> It's not as as easy to fix as you think, if you disable it globally then
> those that use the Application Launcher Menu (rather than kickoff) can't
> logout (or shutdown/restart).
> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/187450

I don't believe that.
I think it's not about "easy to implement" but a decicion.
You can't tell me that is more difficult to implement than all this exciting
high siphisticated Plasma stuff.

Just a clean decicion, and planning HOW KDE should work.
ATM it feels like the Kubuntu devs have no exact plan how to do it, because,
without any doubt:
IF kickoff is default (ant that's gonna be) THEN the current behaviour is
extremely useless.

Clicking to KDE-Button -> red Logout button -> shutdown -> and then having
another dialog asking me if I want to shutdown, log off, restart or what
else, is a usability failure.
And no, waitint 30sec (or in Kubuntu even 60) is NO answer to that.

Possible solutions:
1. (hmmm)
If kickoff is standard, then make it useable easily -> get rid of the second
dialog (even when the dialog is beautiful IMO)


2. (bad)
get rid of the various options in kickoff. Just one "exit" button, leading to
the dialog

3. let the dialog just be a confirmation of the chosen action, NOT offering
all the others too.

... and some others.

But the current behaviour will just confuse people.



Cheers,
Chris
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Old 09-13-2008, 03:04 PM
Terence Simpson
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

Christian A. Reiter wrote:
> Am Samstag, 13. September 2008 09:29:20 schrieb Terence Simpson:
>
>>> That is configurable in System Settings in the Session Management area.
>>> Fixing this is on the devs' todo list
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo it just hasn't been done yet.
>>>
>> It's not as as easy to fix as you think, if you disable it globally then
>> those that use the Application Launcher Menu (rather than kickoff) can't
>> logout (or shutdown/restart).
>> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/187450
>>
>
> I don't believe that.
> I think it's not about "easy to implement" but a decicion.
> You can't tell me that is more difficult to implement than all this exciting
> high siphisticated Plasma stuff.
>
Kubuntu did not implement plasma, KDE did.
> Just a clean decicion, and planning HOW KDE should work.
> ATM it feels like the Kubuntu devs have no exact plan how to do it, because,
> without any doubt:
> IF kickoff is default (ant that's gonna be) THEN the current behaviour is
> extremely useless.
>
Maybe, but it *works*
> Clicking to KDE-Button -> red Logout button -> shutdown -> and then having
> another dialog asking me if I want to shutdown, log off, restart or what
> else, is a usability failure.
> And no, waitint 30sec (or in Kubuntu even 60) is NO answer to that.
>
You can disable that yourself from System Settings if it bugs you.
> Possible solutions:
> 1. (hmmm)
> If kickoff is standard, then make it useable easily -> get rid of the second
> dialog (even when the dialog is beautiful IMO)
>
>
That's really up to KDE, not us.
> 2. (bad)
> get rid of the various options in kickoff. Just one "exit" button, leading to
> the dialog
>
> 3. let the dialog just be a confirmation of the chosen action, NOT offering
> all the others too.
>
Again, System Settings has options for that IIRC.
> ... and some others.
>
> But the current behaviour will just confuse people.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>

Terence Simpson


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Old 09-13-2008, 03:12 PM
Celeste Lyn Paul
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

On Saturday 13 September 2008 09:49:43 Christian A. Reiter wrote:
> Am Samstag, 13. September 2008 09:29:20 schrieb Terence Simpson:
> > > That is configurable in System Settings in the Session Management area.
> > > Fixing this is on the devs' todo list
> > > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Todo it just hasn't been done yet.
> >
> > It's not as as easy to fix as you think, if you disable it globally then
> > those that use the Application Launcher Menu (rather than kickoff) can't
> > logout (or shutdown/restart).
> > See
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/187450
>
> I don't believe that.
> I think it's not about "easy to implement" but a decicion.
> You can't tell me that is more difficult to implement than all this
> exciting high siphisticated Plasma stuff.
>
> Just a clean decicion, and planning HOW KDE should work.
> ATM it feels like the Kubuntu devs have no exact plan how to do it,
> because, without any doubt:
> IF kickoff is default (ant that's gonna be) THEN the current behaviour is
> extremely useless.

Actually, there are some weird technical issues regarding the work flow of
logging out via Kickoff. I would followup with upstream KDE if you want to
know more about it or look up the thread on kde-devel and kde-usability. The
topic has been heavily discussed.

> Clicking to KDE-Button -> red Logout button -> shutdown -> and then having
> another dialog asking me if I want to shutdown, log off, restart or what
> else, is a usability failure.
> And no, waitint 30sec (or in Kubuntu even 60) is NO answer to that.
>
> Possible solutions:
> 1. (hmmm)
> If kickoff is standard, then make it useable easily -> get rid of the
> second dialog (even when the dialog is beautiful IMO)
>
>
> 2. (bad)
> get rid of the various options in kickoff. Just one "exit" button, leading
> to the dialog
>
> 3. let the dialog just be a confirmation of the chosen action, NOT offering
> all the others too.
>
> ... and some others.
>
> But the current behaviour will just confuse people.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris



--
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KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org

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Old 09-13-2008, 04:06 PM
"Antonio Augusto (Mancha)"
 
Default KDE 4.x and the "Leave" menu

>> I don't believe that.
>> I think it's not about "easy to implement" but a decicion.
>> You can't tell me that is more difficult to implement than all this exciting
>> high siphisticated Plasma stuff.
>>
> Kubuntu did not implement plasma, KDE did.
(snip)
> You can disable that yourself from System Settings if it bugs you.
>> Possible solutions:
>> 1. (hmmm)
>> If kickoff is standard, then make it useable easily -> get rid of the second
>> dialog (even when the dialog is beautiful IMO)
>>
>>
> That's really up to KDE, not us.

Just my two cents in these two comments: just because KDE did
something it doesn't mean Kubuntu can't change it. Thats the beauty of
open source you know
On the other hand i know we don't have as much Kubuntu developers as
one could wish for, but thats no excuse. If there is one thing that is
not working quite well in KDE AND there is a better approach out there
why can't Kubuntu use it?

For example (and i'm not saying this is what should be done), we could
switch back to the classic menu and not use kickoff right now. Another
option is Lancelot, that is available in Ubuntu repos (thou it still
need a lot of work).

My point is: we don't have to follow other people "mistakes" if we
thing there is something better.

Cheers,
KM

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