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Old 07-31-2008, 03:16 PM
Wulfy
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

Christian A. Reiter wrote:



The answer to your question is it doesn't "suddenly become production
quality". There's a lot of work to be done between now and October.

Scott K


Ah, OK! Thanks for helping me understand. :@)




That's exactly what I meant (and "Auzy"'s idea was):
Even Wulfy, who writes to the Kubuntu-devel mailing list, didn't know that.


When 4.0 came out it was billed as a developer release and we were told
to wait for 4.1.* It just seemed strange to be told the same thing for
4.1... I'm eager to get it, but I don't really know enough to be a
proper tester.


It hast o be made clear on the homepage...

I'll try to "invent" some phrases, if you don't mind; where should I put them
then?

Christian


I think sometimes developers and packagers forget that they have
"privileged" information not easily available to us "ordinary" users.*
We need just a little more detail to understand.* :@)



I want to thank you all for being so nice about it.* It would have been
easy for you to snap at me for asking such a "dumb" question, as
happens on some other lists but thankfully not on Ubuntu lists!* :@)



--
Blessings

Wulfmann

Wulf Credo:
Respect the elders. Teach the young. Co-operate with the pack.
Play when you can. Hunt when you must. Rest in between.
Share your affections. Voice your opinion. Leave your Mark.
Copyright July 17, 1988 by Del Goetz


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Old 07-31-2008, 03:18 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Thursday 31 July 2008 11:16, Wulfy wrote:
> Christian A. Reiter wrote:
> >>> The answer to your question is it doesn't "suddenly become production
> >>> quality". There's a lot of work to be done between now and October.
> >>>
> >>> Scott K
> >>
> >> Ah, OK! Thanks for helping me understand. :@)
> >
> > That's exactly what I meant (and "Auzy"'s idea was):
> > Even Wulfy, who writes to the Kubuntu-devel mailing list, didn't know
> > that.
>
> When 4.0 came out it was billed as a developer release and we were told
> to wait for 4.1. It just seemed strange to be told the same thing for
> 4.1... I'm eager to get it, but I don't really know enough to be a
> proper tester.

As a regular Kubuntu user then you want to wait for Intrepid to be released in
October.

Scott K

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Old 07-31-2008, 03:23 PM
"Christian A. Reiter"
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

Am Donnerstag, 31. Juli 2008 17:16:59 schrieb Wulfy:
>
> When 4.0 came out it was billed as a developer release and we were told
> to wait for 4.1. It just seemed strange to be told the same thing for
> 4.1... I'm eager to get it, but I don't really know enough to be a
> proper tester.
>

That's another thing.
In Ubuntu there are no version upgrades within one release, that should be
clear if hardy is 3.5, there nover will be a change to 4.x within that
release.
This is out of discussion.

If you want a (proper or improper) tester, get it.
But it is not supported.

And that should really made clear.
Christian
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:28 PM
Celeste Lyn Paul
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:39:43 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:31, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> > On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:31:36 Wulfy wrote:
> > > Christian A. Reiter wrote:
> > > >> Does this mean that Kubuntu Intrepid will be "for testers only"?
> > > >> After all, the Ibex will be based on KDE 4.1...
> > > >
> > > > No, of course not.
> > > > I meant KDE 4.1 in Ubuntu Hardy, like proposed on the homepage.
> > > >
> > > > Christian
> > >
> > > So what's the difference? KDE 4.1 is KDE 4.1... if it's "only for
> > > testers" in Hardy, how does it suddenly become production quality for
> > > Intrepid?
> >
> > Before the 29th the packages provided were beta and release candidates.
> > Betas and RCs are for testers, not production. Now that 4.1 is out, it
> > is suitable for everyone to use and that is what will be in Intrepid.
> > Where is the confusion?
>
> You think our packaging of KDE4.1 in the Hardy PPA is mature enough for
> everyone?

No, his question seemed to be directed at the state of KDE 4.1 in general and
the beta software available not necessarily the quality of packaging. I know
there is a lot of work to be done in terms of packaging.




--
Celeste Lyn Paul
celeste@kde.org
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org

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Old 07-31-2008, 03:39 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Thursday 31 July 2008 11:28, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:39:43 Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:31, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> > > On Thursday 31 July 2008 10:31:36 Wulfy wrote:
> > > > Christian A. Reiter wrote:
> > > > >> Does this mean that Kubuntu Intrepid will be "for testers only"?
> > > > >> After all, the Ibex will be based on KDE 4.1...
> > > > >
> > > > > No, of course not.
> > > > > I meant KDE 4.1 in Ubuntu Hardy, like proposed on the homepage.
> > > > >
> > > > > Christian
> > > >
> > > > So what's the difference? KDE 4.1 is KDE 4.1... if it's "only for
> > > > testers" in Hardy, how does it suddenly become production quality for
> > > > Intrepid?
> > >
> > > Before the 29th the packages provided were beta and release candidates.
> > > Betas and RCs are for testers, not production. Now that 4.1 is out, it
> > > is suitable for everyone to use and that is what will be in Intrepid.
> > > Where is the confusion?
> >
> > You think our packaging of KDE4.1 in the Hardy PPA is mature enough for
> > everyone?
>
> No, his question seemed to be directed at the state of KDE 4.1 in general
> and the beta software available not necessarily the quality of packaging.
> I know there is a lot of work to be done in terms of packaging.

OK. I think when speaking in the context of a distro (i.e. on a Kubuntu list)
we really need to keep the entire system in mind when answering such
questions. KDE 4.1 is released and mature enough for the end user, but
there's a lot of packaging work to be done so the KDE 4.1 you can install now
probably isn't is a distinction without a difference for the Kubuntu end
user.

Scott K

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Old 07-31-2008, 05:00 PM
"p.daniels"
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Thursday July 31 2008 05:42:48 Christian A. Reiter wrote:

> I just read and commented this Brainstorm idea:

> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11671/

>

> And maybe Kubuntu should consider not making the same thing again KDE did

> with 4.0 - There should definitely be anything like "test it, try it, but

> it is NOT recommended for daily use in Kubuntu." at

> http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.1

>

> Like "Auzy" said in the idea, www.kubuntu.org is for new users as well, and

> if they see "KDE 4.1 Released" in big letters on the homepage they want to

> install it.

>

> Christian



I am typing this from KDE 4.1. It is light-years past KDE 4.0.x. I don't see why "Joe N00b" would have any more problems with it than any other desktop. (Disclaimer: I am not Joe N00b, but I work with him every day.)



-p.daniels
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Old 07-31-2008, 06:18 PM
"Christian A. Reiter"
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

Am Donnerstag, 31. Juli 2008 19:00:24 schrieb p.daniels:
>
> I am typing this from KDE 4.1. It is light-years past KDE 4.0.x. I don't
> see why "Joe N00b" would have any more problems with it than any other
> desktop. (Disclaimer: I am not Joe N00b, but I work with him every day.)
>
> -p.daniels

Agreed KDE4.0/4.1 are two pairs of shoes. But "even" I (as 5 years Linux user)
have my problems with Kubuntu/KDE4.1 and stay with 3.5 ATM.

Everyone knows that Ubuntu has less efforts polishing KDE than GNOME. That's
not bad, just decicion. And kubuntu-kde4-desktop with ppa-KDE4.1 IS LESS
STABLE than kubuntu-desktop.
That's all I want to say - and that that should be made transparent.

Christian
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:15 AM
"Krzysztof Lichota"
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

2008/7/31 Christian A. Reiter <chris.reiter@gmx.at>:
> Agreed KDE4.0/4.1 are two pairs of shoes. But "even" I (as 5 years Linux user)
> have my problems with Kubuntu/KDE4.1 and stay with 3.5 ATM.
>
> Everyone knows that Ubuntu has less efforts polishing KDE than GNOME. That's
> not bad, just decicion. And kubuntu-kde4-desktop with ppa-KDE4.1 IS LESS
> STABLE than kubuntu-desktop.
> That's all I want to say - and that that should be made transparent.

Given this fact I think the decision of not shipping KDE 3.5 with
Intrepid is shooting yourself in the foot for Kubuntu, especially
given the fact that Hardy is not LTS and cannot act as safe harbour
for people who need stable system. They will just drift away to other
distributions or Ubuntu with Gnome.

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Old 08-01-2008, 01:19 PM
"Antonio Augusto (Mancha)"
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 07:15, Krzysztof Lichota <krzysiek@lichota.net> wrote:
> 2008/7/31 Christian A. Reiter <chris.reiter@gmx.at>:
>> Agreed KDE4.0/4.1 are two pairs of shoes. But "even" I (as 5 years Linux user)
>> have my problems with Kubuntu/KDE4.1 and stay with 3.5 ATM.
>>
>> Everyone knows that Ubuntu has less efforts polishing KDE than GNOME. That's
>> not bad, just decicion. And kubuntu-kde4-desktop with ppa-KDE4.1 IS LESS
>> STABLE than kubuntu-desktop.
>> That's all I want to say - and that that should be made transparent.
>
> Given this fact I think the decision of not shipping KDE 3.5 with
> Intrepid is shooting yourself in the foot for Kubuntu, especially
> given the fact that Hardy is not LTS and cannot act as safe harbour
> for people who need stable system. They will just drift away to other
> distributions or Ubuntu with Gnome.
>

While i partially agree with you in this. I think this was a decision
of the Kubuntu Concil for the best in the long term.
Putting the effort to keep two KDE versions would be hard, especially
if we are trying to get the same level of polishiness as Gnome.
As said before Kubuntu simple doesn't have the same manpower as Ubuntu
to develop the KDE desktop as what it should be (thou i think it can
really be done!)

Cheers,
KM

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Old 08-01-2008, 01:40 PM
Scott Kitterman
 
Default KDE 4.1 "for testers only"

On Friday 01 August 2008 09:19, Antonio Augusto (Mancha) wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 07:15, Krzysztof Lichota <krzysiek@lichota.net>
wrote:
> > 2008/7/31 Christian A. Reiter <chris.reiter@gmx.at>:
> >> Agreed KDE4.0/4.1 are two pairs of shoes. But "even" I (as 5 years Linux
> >> user) have my problems with Kubuntu/KDE4.1 and stay with 3.5 ATM.
> >>
> >> Everyone knows that Ubuntu has less efforts polishing KDE than GNOME.
> >> That's not bad, just decicion. And kubuntu-kde4-desktop with ppa-KDE4.1
> >> IS LESS STABLE than kubuntu-desktop.
> >> That's all I want to say - and that that should be made transparent.
> >
> > Given this fact I think the decision of not shipping KDE 3.5 with
> > Intrepid is shooting yourself in the foot for Kubuntu, especially
> > given the fact that Hardy is not LTS and cannot act as safe harbour
> > for people who need stable system. They will just drift away to other
> > distributions or Ubuntu with Gnome.
>
> While i partially agree with you in this. I think this was a decision
> of the Kubuntu Concil for the best in the long term.
> Putting the effort to keep two KDE versions would be hard, especially
> if we are trying to get the same level of polishiness as Gnome.
> As said before Kubuntu simple doesn't have the same manpower as Ubuntu
> to develop the KDE desktop as what it should be (thou i think it can
> really be done!)
>
> Cheers,
> KM

Personally, I don't think we had any choice at least in one regard:
displayconfig.

The current displayconfig for KDE3 that's in Hardy I managed to patch up well
enough to work with Hardy's X and just throw it over the finish line. To
work well with even Hardy's X and to be usable with future X versions that
are even more oriented towards Xrandr and no xorg.conf would require a
substantial rewrite that no one is willing to undertake.

So, any KDE3 desktop we might have chosen to deliver with Intrepid would have
been horribly broken in at least that respect.

Scott K

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