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Old 05-26-2008, 11:28 PM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

Cyrus Jones wrote:

> In Gobuntu, updates are made available at the same
> time as Ubuntu and other official Ubuntu derivatives since the same
> repository is used.

I don't believe that's right. I'm still waiting for the Gobuntu release
version of Hardy, but DeltaH is available now.

> Additionally, gNewSense has only had two releases
> so far that are derived from Ubuntu LTS releases.

And Gobuntu has had only one release, so...

> As a result, it does not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to
> date as Ubuntu, and there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.

Despite DeltaH's release being later?

Matt Flaschen

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Old 05-26-2008, 11:52 PM
"Cyrus Jones"
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

>> In Gobuntu, updates are made available at the same
>> time as Ubuntu and other official Ubuntu derivatives since the same
>> repository is used.
>
> I don't believe that's right. I'm still waiting for the Gobuntu release
> version of Hardy, but DeltaH is available now.

Yes, Gobuntu 8.04 has not been released since "the Gobuntu community
has been relatively inactive." However, the daily build can be used:
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/gobuntu/daily/current/

Nevertheless, I was referring to package updates (i.e. security
updates), and not to new releases. As gNewSense has its own repository
using an independent development system (not Launchpad), gNewSense has
to independently publish updates.

>> Additionally, gNewSense has only had two releases
>> so far that are derived from Ubuntu LTS releases.
>
> And Gobuntu has had only one release, so...

I should have been more clear. If Gobuntu is to stay, its release
would coincide with Ubuntu releases. gNewSense, on the other hand,
would be derived from future Ubuntu LTS releases (next one is 1.5
years from now), unless gNewSense changes their policy.

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Old 05-27-2008, 12:34 AM
Eric Morey
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
> As a result, it does
> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.

That doesn't seem right to me. Are LTS versions of Ubuntu less secure
than regular releases?


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Old 05-27-2008, 12:45 AM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

Cyrus Jones wrote:

>>> Additionally, gNewSense has only had two releases
>>> so far that are derived from Ubuntu LTS releases.
>> And Gobuntu has had only one release, so...
>
> I should have been more clear. If Gobuntu is to stay, its release
> would coincide with Ubuntu releases.

Again, this is what we were told when Gobuntu Gutsy came out. As far as
I can tell, it's not going to happen. In the meantime, gNewSense is
doing exactly what they said they would do.

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Old 05-27-2008, 12:46 AM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

Eric Morey wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
>> As a result, it does
>> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
>> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
>> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
>> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.
>
> That doesn't seem right to me. Are LTS versions of Ubuntu less secure
> than regular releases?

All currently supported Ubuntu releases are /supposed/ to be fully
secure. Which is most secure in practice of course varies, but there is
no policy of letting LTS lag in security.

Matt Flaschen

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Old 05-27-2008, 09:58 AM
"Cyrus Jones"
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

LTS releases occur every 2 years, not 1.5 years as I incorrectly stated.

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Matthew Flaschen
<matthew.flaschen@gatech.edu> wrote:
> Eric Morey wrote:
>> On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
>>> As a result, it does
>>> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
>>> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
>>> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
>>> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.
>>
>> That doesn't seem right to me. Are LTS versions of Ubuntu less secure
>> than regular releases?
>
> All currently supported Ubuntu releases are /supposed/ to be fully
> secure. Which is most secure in practice of course varies, but there is
> no policy of letting LTS lag in security.
>
> Matt Flaschen
>
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> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
>

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Old 05-27-2008, 08:37 PM
Carsten Agger
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
> As a result, it does
> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.
>
Yes, gNewSense will not be as up to date application wise as the
regular Ubuntu releases if it continues to be built on the LTS. That's
their choice, though, and Gobuntu will be for people who want a free
version of the "latest and greatest" Ubuntu. Question, though: Wouldn't
people who want the "latest and greatest" at all times also tend to want
restricted drivers etc. to get the most out of all the latest and
greatest stuff?

Speaking of *security* I don't think there's much of a difference - it's
my understanding that gNewSense pushes security updates from the LTS
rapidly so Gobuntu and gNewSense are equal in that area.

> At the same time, of course, gNewSense has advantages which Gobuntu
> cannot offer. It uses free software for development, avoiding
> proprietary Launchpad. It also modifies packages to make sure the last
> bits of non-free software are removed as it has higher standards for
> free software (i.e. non-free GLX). Gobuntu does not do so.
> Unfortunately, the modification of packages causes incompatibility
> with the Ubuntu repositories.
>
> Until collaboration with gNewSense will solve these issues, Gobuntu
> should not be abandoned.
>
> The solution to this problem might be very difficult and tedious, and
> may include freeing Launchpad (wouldn't that be great?).It also
> appears that the only way to completely remove the last bits of
> non-free software in Ubuntu packages is to make universe and
> multiverse versions of many Ubuntu packages.
>
GLX is a conundrum - I've been trying to look into that problem
(https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/6765), and it seems GLX will
have to be reimplemented: SGI is not going to relicense it, and the
current license is non-free to the extent of making modified versions
problematic (maybe not to European hobbyists and network programmers
like myself, but try telling a concerned American lawyer that SGI are
"probably not" going to sue even though distribution of modified
versions void their patent license).

Actually, it seems the only short-term solution to this problem is to
remove the GLX code from main and move it to restricted until it has
been reimplemented or SGI has relicensed it (and Debian should do
similarly). As the last thing's probably not going to happen, in the end
it will have to be re-coded - which is a shame, since it feels partly
like a waste of good work since the problem could be solved with much
less effort if only SGI would relicense ...

And like I hinted, I don't think it's just a question of hair-splitting
over licenses: I believe the SGI Public License is problematic enough
to cause real legal problems, or at least enough to worry an American
legal department.

By which I actually want to say: If Gobuntu is to be a 100% free version
of Ubuntu, it will need to remove the GLX support in the X server too;
and it will need to remove a lot of non-free drivers, just as gNewSense
has done. You may be right and different versions of the same packages
in main and universe or multiverse might be necessary, in that case.

But still, you may have a point: Gobuntu might be nice to have as a 100%
free version of *all* Ubuntu releases, not just LTS. And it might be
nice also because Gobuntu users can more easily use the Ubuntu community
for technical support, which is more tricky with gNewSense. But I still
believe the existence of gNewSense and the availability of an "all free"
vanilla Ubuntu install "squeezes" Gobuntu's use case to make it *almost*
not necessary.

Collaboration and mutual benefit between Ubuntu and gNewSense is more
important right now than Gobuntu itself, I think.

br
Carsten

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Old 05-28-2008, 12:40 AM
"Cyrus Jones"
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Eric Morey <eric@glodime.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
>> As a result, it does
>> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
>> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
>> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
>> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.
>
> That doesn't seem right to me. Are LTS versions of Ubuntu less secure
> than regular releases?

No, they are not less secure, but my point about gNewSense possibly
being less secure was regarding my perceived delay in updates, since
Launchpad and the Ubuntu repositories are not directly being used.
gNewSense has its own separate and independent development
system/repository.

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Carsten Agger <agger@c.dk> wrote:
> Speaking of *security* I don't think there's much of a difference - it's
> my understanding that gNewSense pushes security updates from the LTS
> rapidly so Gobuntu and gNewSense are equal in that area.

However, it seems I was mistaken as gNewSense does apparently push LTS
security updates rapidly (even though it is more work).

> Yes, gNewSense will not be as up to date application wise as the
> regular Ubuntu releases if it continues to be built on the LTS. That's
> their choice, though, and Gobuntu will be for people who want a free
> version of the "latest and greatest" Ubuntu. Question, though: Wouldn't
> people who want the "latest and greatest" at all times also tend to want
> restricted drivers etc. to get the most out of all the latest and
> greatest stuff?

Not necessarily. I'm sure there are people (possibly myself included)
who want to use only free software and the latest and greatest of what
free software has to offer. That may be especially the case with
people who run Debian sid (unstable) and only use the default official
repositories (main). Of course, gNewSense/Gobuntu should not be as
unstable as Debian sid, but this is just an example.

As a side note, Debian uses the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG)
and not the Free Software Foundation (FSF) definition for free
software.

> Actually, it seems the only short-term solution to this problem is to
> remove the GLX code from main and move it to restricted until it has
> been reimplemented or SGI has relicensed it (and Debian should do
> similarly). As the last thing's probably not going to happen, in the end
> it will have to be re-coded - which is a shame, since it feels partly
> like a waste of good work since the problem could be solved with much
> less effort if only SGI would relicense ...
>
> By which I actually want to say: If Gobuntu is to be a 100% free version
> of Ubuntu, it will need to remove the GLX support in the X server too;
> and it will need to remove a lot of non-free drivers, just as gNewSense
> has done. You may be right and different versions of the same packages
> in main and universe or multiverse might be necessary, in that case.

Yes, I do agree. This is a bit of a problem.

> But still, you may have a point: Gobuntu might be nice to have as a 100%
> free version of *all* Ubuntu releases, not just LTS. And it might be
> nice also because Gobuntu users can more easily use the Ubuntu community
> for technical support, which is more tricky with gNewSense. But I still
> believe the existence of gNewSense and the availability of an "all free"
> vanilla Ubuntu install "squeezes" Gobuntu's use case to make it *almost*
> not necessary.
>
> Collaboration and mutual benefit between Ubuntu and gNewSense is more
> important right now than Gobuntu itself, I think.

I suppose so. Maybe Gobuntu and gNewSense could merge (as difficult as
that may be) or at least more collaboration occur. Ubuntu would move
packages to multiverse/restricted as necessary or create universe and
multiverse versions of packages so that gNewSense would not have to
modify Ubuntu packages anymore. For example, Ubuntu could remove
non-free kernel firmware and non-free GLX from main. gNewSense's work
would be reduced, and more importantly, there would be greater
compatibility between gNewSense and Ubuntu with multiverse and
restricted removed. Ideally, gNewSense releases would coincide with
all Ubuntu releases and gNewSense would not have to use its own
software repository. The question is, would gNewSense do such a thing,
because that would almost require them to use Launchpad, which is
proprietary (they currently use Builder to make distribution and
repository). If only Launchpad was free.

As side notes, Gobuntu was always missing a live CD, which IMHO is
very important for a 100% free distribution in which some hardware
might not be supported by free software alone (gNewSense has a live
CD). However, Gobuntu has a 64-bit version, which gNewSense is
missing.

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Old 05-28-2008, 01:23 AM
Teddy Smith
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Carsten Agger wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-05-26 at 17:24 -0400, Cyrus Jones wrote:
>> As a result, it does
>> not seem likely that gNewSense will be as up to date as Ubuntu, and
>> there might not be any releases for 1.5 years (between Ubuntu LTS
>> releases). So if someone wants to use the latest (and more secure)
>> software, Gobuntu is the better choice.
>>
> Yes, gNewSense will not be as up to date application wise as the
> regular Ubuntu releases if it continues to be built on the LTS. That's
> their choice, though, and Gobuntu will be for people who want a free
> version of the "latest and greatest" Ubuntu. Question, though: Wouldn't
> people who want the "latest and greatest" at all times also tend to want
> restricted drivers etc. to get the most out of all the latest and
> greatest stuff?
Speaking as a Gobuntu user who has been mostly lurking this mailing
list, I can say that at least on my own part, the answer is no. I want
the latest and greatest *free* software. I don't see the point in
"getting the most out of all the latest and greatest stuff" by
shackling myself and the hardware that the drivers would be running
on. I can get a lot more out of that hardware by using free drivers.

I think it's misguided at best to assume that those who want the
"latest and greatest" software, especially when they are limiting
themselves to the latest and greatest *free* software, would want to
use proprietary software under some other name. The need for a
distribution that offers fully free releases of the latest and
greatest free software is very relevant in my eyes.
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:22 PM
Sam Geeraerts
 
Default Gobuntu vs gNewSense

Carsten Agger wrote:
> But still, you may have a point: Gobuntu might be nice to have as a 100%
> free version of *all* Ubuntu releases, not just LTS. And it might be
> nice also because Gobuntu users can more easily use the Ubuntu community
> for technical support, which is more tricky with gNewSense. But I still
> believe the existence of gNewSense and the availability of an "all free"
> vanilla Ubuntu install "squeezes" Gobuntu's use case to make it *almost*
> not necessary.
>
> Collaboration and mutual benefit between Ubuntu and gNewSense is more
> important right now than Gobuntu itself, I think.
>

gNewSense currently has only LTS versions because of lack of manpower. I
think the current community is doing great work to make it as free and
as functional as possible. I think it's feasible to follow Ubuntu's
releases in the future, although a few more people would come in handy.
Deriving from every release also means less work per release, I think,
because the diff is smaller.

Anyway, I totally agree that more collaboration is important. That
doesn't need to happen in a big bang way by freeing Launchpad and doing
funky stuff with the repositories. I think it should start by making the
flow between Ubuntu and gNewSense smoother. I believe it is now possible
to hook an external bug tracker on to Launchpad. Most bugs in gNewSense
should be bugs in Ubuntu (or at least in Gobuntu), so having an easy way
to share them without the gNewSense community having to touch LP would
be nice. If anyone knows how to set this up: post your thoughts on the
gNewSense mailing list.

Any other ideas on ways to collaborate?

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