FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Ubuntu > Gobuntu Developer

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 04-20-2008, 05:39 PM
"Nathaniel Schwartz"
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

It seems like we've kind of gotten off track of "rethinking gobuntu"
to debating the fine points and gray areas of what constitutes free
software and what doesn't. While I think it's important to talk about
these things, I'd like to see some resolution come out of this
discussion so we can move forward with Gobuntu. I'm not savvy enough
about all the technical details to know what to do for the future, but
most everyone else here is pretty savvy, so I think it is possible to
resolve some issues and start moving forward.

It seems to me that some of the real issues are (and not in any
particular order):

1) Ubuntu uses LaunchPad which is non-free
2) There are not enough people "stepping up" to do the work
3) There is no clearly defined goal, so 2) depends on defining what
Gobuntu will be, and how it is related to and different from gNewSense
4) How to separate the things that don't go into Gobuntu from the
things that go into Ubuntu
5) What to do about the kernel

There are probably other issues, so please edit this list as is appropriate.

Or not. I'm just suggesting this to help focus, but maybe nobody wants
my suggestions. In that case, I respectfully take it back :-)

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Stanislas Breton
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

Dave Crossland wrote:
> On 19/04/2008, Stanislas Breton <stanislas_breton@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dave Crossland wrote:
>> > On 19/04/2008, Stanislas Breton <stanislas_breton@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> Dave Crossland wrote:
>> >> > It is true that some may stick with Windows,
>> >> > But over the long term, if they are using free
>> >> > software and their data is buliding up in free software formats,
>> >> > they will find it easier to switch.
>> >>
>> >> The FSF/GNU Project tacitly encourage people to *continue* using it,
>> >> presupposes the use of irremediably unfree software.
>> >
>> > Presupposing the use of Windows, Mac OS X or any other OS is not
>> > unreasonable, because they come preinstalled on most computers.
>>
>> Perhaps ten years ago, when installing and maintaining Linux or *BSD was
>> prohibitively difficult for anyone without the technical wherewithal,
>> but hardly today. As we're forever being reminded, systems comprised
>> almost exclusively of free software are only a 700MB download away.
>>
>
> 20 years ago the main barrier to adoption of a free OS was that none existed.
>
> 10 years ago the main barrier to adoption of a free OS was installing
> and maintaining it.
>
> Today the main barrier to adoption is access to existing data in
> proprietary formats.
>
> That is what the ODF/OOXML fight is about.
>
> That is what installing free software applications on Windows solves.
>
> Therefore that the Ubuntu CD no longer includes free software for
> Windows is a mistake, IMO.
>
>
>> >> Stallman's surprisingly dismissive: "Making free apps run on
>> >> non-free systems ... for some users eliminates a motivation to
>> >> migrate. ... Most users are reluctant to change operating systems
>> >> at all."
>> >
>> > [this] exaggerates his position to the point of misrepresentation.
>>
>> I didn't suggest that Stallman "dismisses" FLOSS for Windows.
>>
>
> Okay, sorry if I misread you, but you still say:
>
>
>> Stallman seems to suggest, most people
>> are by nature reluctant to handle the perceived rigmarole involved in
>> transferring over to another operating system
>>
>
> He does not suggest that; that he seems to you to suggest this,
> suggests to me that you are projecting your own ideas on to him.
>

Yeah, but to read him otherwise would be to paint his Linux refuseniks
as either lazy or indifferent.

> He actually says the effects are mixed, and that is one effect, the
> other is that people are encouraged to overcome that natural
> reluctance.
>
> The rigmarole is not installing a new OS, it is carrying on with your
> data on that new OS, is it not?
>
>

Part of the rigmarole is thinking through the fate of legacy data
trapped in proprietary formats. Even where work has been done to reverse
engineer proprietary data formats, such as Sun's in connection with MS
Office, there's a practical consideration -- vital in the case of
documents sent to and from business contacts -- of whether the filters
can be trusted to adequately handle the finer aspects of formatting. And
of course, it's often simply assumed by employers, family, friends and
work colleagues that your home PC's equipped to install this or that
piece of Windows junk.

So to a great many Windows users weighing up the prospects of a
wholesale switch, especially on a family PC, there's a perceived
"social" lock-in from the demands of our families and peers.

>> (and who can blame them?),
>> or are otherwise satisfied with the existing Win32 builds, then why kid
>> ourselves?
>>
>
> If they are satisfied with Windos, they are kidding themselves, hmm? :-)
>
>





--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 05:48 PM
Matthew Flaschen
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
> The first step I hope to address is the sense of real data ownership.
> It's weird that you have to screen-scrape ANY site to retrieve data that
> you co-own, so Launchpad will shortly offer direct API's where you can
> retrieve, as often as you want, all the data you added to the system,
> modify it programatically, and even retrieve data entered by others that
> you could get via screenscraping.

I think this is excellent.

> I do agree that Affero is a better option than the straightforward GPL.
> I am still uncomfortable with the idea of having lots of Launchpad's,
> though. Launchpad was designed as a central platform to link different
> projects, and having multiple centers would decrease the value of it to
> the current users.

It could, conceivably, if it's done wrong. But if the Launchpad
instances all communicate via a standardized protocol, than it won't be
a problem any more than having too many free DNS resolvers running is a
problem.

Matt Flaschen

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 06:31 PM
Zeth
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

On 20/04/2008, Nathaniel Schwartz <gnat79@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems to me that some of the real issues are (and not in any
> particular order):
> 1) Ubuntu uses LaunchPad which is non-free

For the end user, Gobuntu has no dependencies on Launchpad, what
developers do is a different subject which is perhaps less relevant if
we are trying to keep on track.

> 2) There are not enough people

This is an interesting problem. At the moment, from what you say, it
seems that Gobuntu needs a little bit of bootstrapping.

> "stepping up" to do the work

It could be that it is too difficult to find the step. Sometimes, you
actually have to ask to get. People are, on the whole, not telepathic.

The target user/developer for Gobuntu people who hitherto have not
been interested in Ubuntu because it is not "free" enough for them.
People who are already in the Ubuntu community don't need Gobuntu
because they are already happy with Ubuntu.

So imagine someone is interested in helping Gobuntu, but is otherwise
uninterested in Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Canonical and all that. Is there
actually a clear way for them to get involved?

Do the following pages tell that person what to do?:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu/
http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/gobuntu

Perhaps a good start would be that someone could run a "How to help
Gobuntu" session in UbuntuOpenWeek?

Best Wishes,
Zeth

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 07:22 PM
"Dave Crossland"
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

On 20/04/2008, Nathaniel Schwartz <gnat79@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 4) How to separate the things that don't go into Gobuntu from the
> things that go into Ubuntu
> 5) What to do about the kernel

These seem the same thing to me.

On 20/04/2008, Zeth <theology@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/04/2008, Nathaniel Schwartz <gnat79@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It seems to me that some of the real issues are (and not in any
> > particular order):
> > 1) Ubuntu uses LaunchPad which is non-free
>
> For the end user, Gobuntu has no dependencies on Launchpad, what
> developers do is a different subject which is perhaps less relevant if
> we are trying to keep on track.

As I see it, it is relevant, because Gobuntu objectives are a series like this:

1. Fully free Install CD
2. Fully free binary package repository
3. Fully free source package repository
4. Fully free developer network

These have soft dependencies on Ubuntu's objectives:

A. Most convenient Install CD
B. Most comprehensive repository
C. Most flexible source package repository
D. Most empowering developer network

1-3 are straightforward, and it boggles my mind it took the FSF so
long to fund someone to do it. (The answers why are surprising.) Doing
the deeply challenging philosophical work of figuring out what a 'free
developer network platform' actually means, and implementing it, could
well have been a trail blazed by developers working under the GNU
imprimatur whose wages were paid by the FSF. I don't know why
something like that hasn't happened, but this thread is very
encouraging that it will :-)

--
Regards,
Dave

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 07:36 PM
Sam Geeraerts
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

Nathaniel Schwartz wrote:
> It seems to me that some of the real issues are (and not in any
> particular order):
>
> 1) Ubuntu uses LaunchPad which is non-free
> 2) There are not enough people "stepping up" to do the work
> 3) There is no clearly defined goal, so 2) depends on defining what
> Gobuntu will be, and how it is related to and different from gNewSense
> 4) How to separate the things that don't go into Gobuntu from the
> things that go into Ubuntu
> 5) What to do about the kernel
>

6) What to do about Firefox (and other Mozilla stuff)

I think the reason why gNewSense exists is that it's "Ubuntu done the
FSF way". So if the FSF don't have a (big) problem with using Launchpad
and splitting packages at the binary level instead of removing code from
the source packages, that would go a long way in an effort to join
forces and in a solution for the other issues.

If the FSF say this is unacceptable then gNewSense will continue and it
might be easier to work on that. Most of the above issues don't exist
there. The only things that would remain are lack of manpower and
getting bugs back into Launchpad.

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-20-2008, 10:35 PM
"Dave Crossland"
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

On 20/04/2008, Stanislas Breton <stanislas_breton@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Part of the rigmarole is thinking through the fate of legacy data
> trapped in proprietary formats. ... whether the filters
> can be trusted to adequately handle the finer aspects of formatting.
> ... there's a perceived "social" lock-in from the demands of our
> families and peers.

Sure. But to reduce the strength of that lock in, having ports of free
software to Windows helps.

Which helps migration.

We just have to be patient :-)

--
Regards,
Dave

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-21-2008, 06:06 PM
Michael Fötsch
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

Dave Crossland wrote:
> Developing free software only for a proprietary OS is a problem for
> the free software movement, and is different to porting free software
> from GNU/Linux to a proprietary OS.

Good point. I agree completely.

Kind Regards,
M.F.


--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-27-2008, 01:25 AM
"Aaron Whitehouse"
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

Hello Mark and others,

First of all, a huge "thank you" to you, Mark, for all that you have
done for the free software community.

On 16/04/2008, Mark Shuttleworth <mark@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> The "current and future" thread on this list has got me thinking. Perhaps
> we really are on the wrong track, that the only way to meet the needs of the
> gNewSense folks is to have completely different source packages to Ubuntu.

While I can see the philosophical rationale behind making this point,
the reality is that I personally download very little source code. For
me, binary blobs in the source trees isn't a big issue as I do not
download the "offending" code.

If I understand the issue correctly, people are complaining that the
software is on their machines, uncompiled and not being executed. I
find it difficult to see an ethical issue with this - does this mean
that I don't have software freedom because I have an unused CD of
proprietary software in my house? Please let me know if I have
misunderstood the issue.

> I had hoped to see more participation and collaboration around Gobuntu
> because of the benefits of keeping up with the standard Ubuntu (regular
> releases, security updates etc). However, it seems that the audience for a
> platform like this is willing to accept infrequent releases and less
> maintenance in return for a platform which can be modified more radically.

I think that this depends on what you mean by "audience". I think that
the factors that you list make the project more accessible to users.
You are always going to struggle to attract volunteers to the project
because the "free software zealots" that you are targeting will
volunteer for the "most free" Ubuntu derivative.

> I'm not sure that the current level of activity in Gobuntu warrants the
> division of attention it creates

I think that I have said it before; I would actually guess that
Gobuntu has created more gNewsense users than it has "stolen". I have
no statistical basis for that guess, however. I also understand that
most Gobuntu work has been to identify and separate things into
restricted and multiverse, where they always belonged.

I also think that your answer, Mark, is in this thread, buried deep
within the philosophical argument. You will probably struggle to make
Gobuntu replace gNewsense as, whether justifiably or not, gNewsense is
seen as more free.

Therefore, I think your solution is to clearly classify the roles of
each distribution. Think of the benefit if Gobuntu:
- had a completely free base install;
- provide easy identification of disputed binary and source packages
- warned the user each time that they installed from a non-free or
disputed repository; and
- was released every six months with all the support benefits of Ubuntu.

That would leave gNewsense to:
- split/fork the source packages in that limited, identified set;
- remove the association to Launchpad; and
- remove access to the non-free and disputed repositories.

The key thing that I think has come from this thread is a need to
classify things as disputed by the free software zealots, but not
remove access to the packages for the rest of Ubuntu. This leaves all
the development in Ubuntu.

You say that you do not want to increase Restricted. While that is
admirable, it is a Pyrrhic victory. What seems to be needed is a place
that is fully accessible by Ubuntu but can be split out by
gNewsense/Gobuntu. That job is done by Restricted. Refusing to move
things into that repository does not make the packages more free or
less of an issue. You cannot solve the freedom problem by distorting
the definition of Free.

Regards,

Aaron

--
FSF Associate Member: 5632
http://www.fsf.org

--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 
Old 04-28-2008, 12:10 AM
"Benj. Mako Hill"
 
Default Rethinking Gobuntu

<quote who="Mark Shuttleworth" date="Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 03:17:53PM +0100">
> In the case of Launchpad, we do view you as a co-owner of the data, so
> the resolution of this problem is important to us. As you point out,
> there's no really clear best practice that works well and has been shown
> to be commercially sustainable. That's different to the GPL (even v3). I
> think the Affero GPL is a strong candidate for the front line of
> thinking on the subject, and that's what I am inclined to use when we
> publish Launchpad's source code.

That's great to here. My intuition is the same.

> The first step I hope to address is the sense of real data ownership.
> It's weird that you have to screen-scrape ANY site to retrieve data that
> you co-own, so Launchpad will shortly offer direct API's where you can
> retrieve, as often as you want, all the data you added to the system,
> modify it programatically, and even retrieve data entered by others that
> you could get via screenscraping. In other words, if you can read it
> through the web, or modify it through the web, you should be able to do
> so programatically. I think that will be a big step towards restoring
> "balance to the force", and I hope others will follow suit.

Great. There's some thinking and writing on best practices regarding
data ownership and export as well.

> Separately, we're working with Trac, Bugzilla, Debbugs and other tools
> to get replication in place so that you can in fact run a free software
> tool to manage your bugs for your project, and still collaborate with
> distributions who use Launchpad (Ubuntu, PLD Linux, Nexenta and others)
> as well as upstreams (Zope, AWN and 6,000 others).

Also wonderful news.

Regards,
Mako

--
Benjamin Mako Hill
mako@atdot.cc
http://mako.cc/

Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far
as society is free to use the results. --GNU Manifesto
--
Gobuntu-devel mailing list
Gobuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 07:05 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org