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Old 05-09-2008, 11:19 PM
 
Default Home page slowness

Hi,

We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo is
"alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.

So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
test.

Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?

Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.

Thanks.
--

davecode@nospammail.net

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
unladen european swallow

--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 05-10-2008, 06:33 AM
Francesco Talamona
 
Default Home page slowness

On Saturday 10 May 2008, davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final.

Why? What features are you expecting?

> The comment is, Gentoo
> home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo
> is "alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
> motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.

You are right, many people take conclusions from superficial looks.

> So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
> test.

I don't think we should make Gentoo more appealing, you can attract
people that later will dislike its lack of eye-candy, better be
honest :-)

> Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
> reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
> final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?
>
> Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
> expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.

Unlike other distros, Gentoo evolves linearly, not by leaps (releases).
Indeed there's no strong distinction between updates and upgrades, if
you keep it up-to-date, already have the latest "release".

Ciao
Francesco

--
Linux Version 2.6.25-gentoo-r2, Compiled #1 PREEMPT Sun May 4 08:26:42
CEST 2008
One 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 Processor, 2GB RAM, 2004.04 Bogomips Total
aemaeth
--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 05-10-2008, 07:45 AM
Justin
 
Default Home page slowness

davecode@nospammail.net schrieb:

Hi,

We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo is
"alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.

So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
test.

Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?

Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.

Thanks.

There is no need to wait for any release. You can use what ever
environment you want e.g. any live distro, running linux,... to install
gentoo. On gentoo there aren't release steps in the way other distros
do. So go ahead, boot a livecd get the appropriate stage3 tarball and
portage tarball and begin to love gentoo. If you are waiting for the new
release of the installer, then I would recommend you to do it better the
normal gentoo way as descripted in the handbook
<http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml>.


cheers
justin
 
Old 05-10-2008, 08:28 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Home page slowness

On Saturday 10 May 2008, davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
> home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo
> is "alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
> motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.

I think you misunderstand how Gentoo works.

First of all, there's no such thing as "the latest Gentoo version". What
you do have is the current state of the portage tree and that is
constantly changing.

All that "2008" is, is a workable snapshot of a basic system that you
use to install Gentoo. The next thing you do is update the tree to the
latest state, and update the system by recompiling everything that has
changed since your CD image was built.

There's only one reason to wait for the 2008 CD, and that is if you have
hardware that cannot boot from existing installers due to driver
issues. So this is a bootstrap problem, not a latest version problem.
For example, this very notebook I'm using now is 7 months old, and I
used a 2005 installer CD to install - it just happened to be the only
one I conveniently had handy at the time.

Gentoo is not Ubuntu, don't try to think of it in Ubuntu terms. Don't
claim that "this confuses new users", because those new users are
mistaken. Shoehorning Gentoo into something where the latest installer
is of vital importance is never going to work and all attempts to do so
will fail, in much the same way that awaiting "linux kernel 2.6 SP9" is
also never going to work out

> So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
> test.

That's a false assumption. You or your users are looking at a blue sky
and asking why it isn't green with pink dots because those colours are
nice.

Doesn't work that way.

> Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
> reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
> final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?
>
> Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
> expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.

OK, so this is what you'd like. Unfortunately you can't get it. What
could be done though is a nice big clear link to an article that
explains how Gentoo works and why OS versioning is not relevant.

Perhaps a chart laying out the latest stale and unstable versions of
major packages, categorized by arch would suit your needs.
Distrowatch's list of packages provided would be a good place to start.


--
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 05-10-2008, 08:41 AM
Justin
 
Default Home page slowness

Alan McKinnon schrieb:

On Saturday 10 May 2008, davecode@nospammail.net wrote:


Hi,

We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo
is "alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.



I think you misunderstand how Gentoo works.

First of all, there's no such thing as "the latest Gentoo version". What
you do have is the current state of the portage tree and that is
constantly changing.


All that "2008" is, is a workable snapshot of a basic system that you
use to install Gentoo. The next thing you do is update the tree to the
latest state, and update the system by recompiling everything that has
changed since your CD image was built.


There's only one reason to wait for the 2008 CD, and that is if you have
hardware that cannot boot from existing installers due to driver
issues. So this is a bootstrap problem, not a latest version problem.
For example, this very notebook I'm using now is 7 months old, and I
used a 2005 installer CD to install - it just happened to be the only
one I conveniently had handy at the time.


Gentoo is not Ubuntu, don't try to think of it in Ubuntu terms. Don't
claim that "this confuses new users", because those new users are
mistaken. Shoehorning Gentoo into something where the latest installer
is of vital importance is never going to work and all attempts to do so
will fail, in much the same way that awaiting "linux kernel 2.6 SP9" is
also never going to work out




So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
test.



That's a false assumption. You or your users are looking at a blue sky
and asking why it isn't green with pink dots because those colours are
nice.


Doesn't work that way.



Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?

Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.



OK, so this is what you'd like. Unfortunately you can't get it. What
could be done though is a nice big clear link to an article that
explains how Gentoo works and why OS versioning is not relevant.


Perhaps a chart laying out the latest stale and unstable versions of
major packages, categorized by arch would suit your needs.
Distrowatch's list of packages provided would be a good place to start.





That was what I meant to say! Thanks for this more epic explanation!
 
Old 05-10-2008, 09:31 AM
Florian Philipp
 
Default Home page slowness

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 16:19 -0700, davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
> home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo is
> "alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
> motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.
>
> So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
> test.
>
> Some sort of "progress bar" or chart showing bugs squashed and new
> reported, maybe?? At least some kind of "ticker" showing "expected
> final release date"? Counting lines of code or something?
>
> Personally I don't care when final ships - just knowing "present
> expectations" or status with an easy home page glance is all I ask.
>
> Thanks.
> --
>
> davecode@nospammail.net
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
> unladen european swallow
>

You might want to take a look at Gentoo's Bugzilla charts and
statistics:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/report.cgi

For a start, have a look at "Old Charts" link and create statistics for
new, resolved and fixed bugs. These numbers show clearly that Gentoo is
very alive.

The statistics here: http://www.gentoo-portage.com/Statistics
also show that the number of packages doesn't stagnate as it would on a
dying distro.
 
Old 05-10-2008, 03:43 PM
Mick
 
Default Home page slowness

On Saturday 10 May 2008, Florian Philipp wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 16:19 -0700, davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > We plan to eval Gentoo. We await 2008 final. The comment is, Gentoo
> > home page gives no clue about status. Convincing people that Gentoo is
> > "alive" becomes tricky because the final is months late and little
> > motion on the home page. That's about all most people inspect.
> >
> > So bottom line, impressions of Gentoo are going south even before we
> > test.

> For a start, have a look at "Old Charts" link and create statistics for
> new, resolved and fixed bugs. These numbers show clearly that Gentoo is
> very alive.
>
> The statistics here: http://www.gentoo-portage.com/Statistics
> also show that the number of packages doesn't stagnate as it would on a
> dying distro.

The OP has inadvertently given us some valuable feedback, which stands on its
own and is irrelevant with the fact that he (like many other non-gentoo
users) had mistaken Gentoo for yet-another-binary-distro. Having a user
friendly website that also caters to the needs of newcomers to the Gentoo
scene, requires that the key features and benefits of Gentoo are easily
visible/accessible. Not many people will navigate to hidden Statistics pages
to draw their own conclusions. These could be users that one day prove
valuable contributors. I suggest that we spring clean the website and
consider our new visitors needs at the same time (plus things like the much
asked for Documentation search field?). ;-)

Just my 2c's.
--
Regards,
Mick
 
Old 05-10-2008, 05:25 PM
James
 
Default Home page slowness

Mick <michaelkintzios <at> gmail.com> writes:


> The OP has inadvertently given us some valuable feedback, which stands on its
> own and is irrelevant with the fact that he (like many other non-gentoo
> users) had mistaken Gentoo for yet-another-binary-distro. Having a user
> friendly website that also caters to the needs of newcomers to the Gentoo
> scene, requires that the key features and benefits of Gentoo are easily
> visible/accessible. Not many people will navigate to hidden Statistics pages
> to draw their own conclusions. These could be users that one day prove
> valuable contributors. I suggest that we spring clean the website and
> consider our new visitors needs at the same time (plus things like the much
> asked for Documentation search field?).

Some months ago, when we all argued about the necessity of having a "polished"
installation CD, many of the more technical folks alluded to the fact that
it's really not necessary, as there are a myriad of ways to install Gentoo.
We, who use it regularly, know that at any given point you do not need an
official installation CD to install Gentoo. Very true.


However, as a major Linux distro, I used the analogy of "Green teeth" as
our first impression. This (potentially) new user, and the corporation
where he works, was about to base their entire opinion of Gentoo, based on the
status of the installation CD. For all of those that blasted me, with technical
truths, I have now *A BIG FAT GRIN*!

The question we should all ask is, how often does this happen, and
we never know about it? Like it or not, the installation CD(s) are like
a first kiss, from a woman. We should make a good impression, as that
may be the only chance we get, to grow our membership, into the best
(meta) distro on the planet.

Vindication is very sweet.


Seeya,
James




--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 05-10-2008, 08:48 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Home page slowness

On Sunday 11 May 2008, Florian Philipp wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2008 16:43:41 +0100
>
> Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The OP has inadvertently given us some valuable feedback, which
> > stands on its own and is irrelevant with the fact that he (like
> > many other non-gentoo users) had mistaken Gentoo for
> > yet-another-binary-distro. Having a user friendly website that
> > also caters to the needs of newcomers to the Gentoo scene, requires
> > that the key features and benefits of Gentoo are easily
> > visible/accessible. Not many people will navigate to hidden
> > Statistics pages to draw their own conclusions. These could be
> > users that one day prove valuable contributors. I suggest that we
> > spring clean the website and consider our new visitors needs at the
> > same time (plus things like the much asked for Documentation search
> > field?). ;-)
> >
> > Just my 2c's.
>
> Yep, gentoo.org really seems to have been created from devs and users
> for devs and users. There is nothing like a "Features" page or "Why
> to choose Gentoo" for newcomers. Heck, you have to search hard to
> even learn whether it is suitable for desktops or servers! Just
> compare ubuntu.com with gentoo.org, for example. The difference is
> striking.

Ah, but www.gentoo.org/doc actually does contain decent INFORMATION in a
manner that I can find.

All I ever seem to get out of ubuntu.com (after the cute front page) is
the equivalent of Ubuntu For Dummies or endless chitter-chatter on web
forums almost exclusively populated by 14 year olds. Or people mentally
equivalent to 14 year olds.

gentoo is a lot like Ferraris, Buells and Crays - virtually nobody, but
nobody, gets involved with them without being quite knowledgeable about
the subject as a whole and having a very good idea of what they are all
about.

Let's put it another way. Person X from company Y is evaluating distros
and is put off by www.gentoo.org's front page. Right. Now, what kind of
user is person X do you think? Someone who will be able to use Gentoo
to it's full potential right away? No, I don't think so. If you need to
read the front page to find out the basics of what it is, then you
shouldn't be anywhere near Gentoo as a corporate. You'd be much better
off looking into the well-known binary distros.

I'm not spouting steam out my nose here. My day job is looking after 20
gentoo servers out in the wild at customer's premises. My personal
machines have been exclusively gentoo for over 3 years now. I'm
migrating the customer's machines over to Ubuntu server LTS one by one
as the hardware gets upgraded. Why? Why does someone, who is well known
in my city for being the biggest Gentoo fan around, do that?

Because I cannot deal with the learning curve of my juniors anymore. I
don't want to have to still make every USE related decision on every
machine even though a junior is sitting right there logged in. It makes
complete sense for $ARB_UBUNTU_DEV to make those decisions instead.

So let's tidy up gentoo.org by all means and make it a bit more obvious
how this awesome thing called portage works. But lets not be deceived
into thinking the distro itself is a mass-market distro because it
isn't. It's more like a magnificent hand-made piece of fine Italian
machinery. And I like it that way.


--
Alan McKinnon
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
 
Old 05-10-2008, 10:00 PM
Florian Philipp
 
Default Home page slowness

On Sat, 10 May 2008 16:43:41 +0100
Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The OP has inadvertently given us some valuable feedback, which
> stands on its own and is irrelevant with the fact that he (like many
> other non-gentoo users) had mistaken Gentoo for
> yet-another-binary-distro. Having a user friendly website that also
> caters to the needs of newcomers to the Gentoo scene, requires that
> the key features and benefits of Gentoo are easily
> visible/accessible. Not many people will navigate to hidden
> Statistics pages to draw their own conclusions. These could be users
> that one day prove valuable contributors. I suggest that we spring
> clean the website and consider our new visitors needs at the same
> time (plus things like the much asked for Documentation search
> field?). ;-)
>
> Just my 2c's.

Yep, gentoo.org really seems to have been created from devs and users
for devs and users. There is nothing like a "Features" page or "Why to
choose Gentoo" for newcomers. Heck, you have to search hard to even
learn whether it is suitable for desktops or servers! Just compare
ubuntu.com with gentoo.org, for example. The difference is striking.
 

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