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Old 09-12-2012, 02:46 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200, Alex Schuster wrote:

> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
> lafilefixer --justfixit".

You forgot "sync again".


--
Neil Bothwick

. <-Stealth Tagline
 
Old 09-12-2012, 02:49 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:33:14 +0100
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> > command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and
> > see if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed
> > here :-)
>
> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>
>

<ouch> !

--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 09-12-2012, 02:55 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> Michael Mol writes:
>
> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
> > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>
> > Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
> >
> > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>
> Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
> MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
> are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
> large.

Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.

Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.


>
> > "Turn off distcc"
>
> "revdep-rebuild"
>
> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
> lafilefixer --justfixit".

Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first
verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been
done first before doing extensive troubleshooting.

The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it
gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should
never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing
the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So
even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)





--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 09-12-2012, 03:15 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200

Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:



> Michael Mol writes:

>

> > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk

> > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:

>

> > * * Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

> >

> > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"

>

> Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using

> MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that

> are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how

> large.



Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.



Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one

job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build

failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.



Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)

It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".




>

> > "Turn off distcc"

>

> "revdep-rebuild"

>

> And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&

> lafilefixer --justfixit".



Another example of proper debugging. A wise troubleshooter will first

verify that all relevant maintenance and consistency factors have been

done first before doing extensive troubleshooting.



The last one, "lafilefixer --justfixit" is especially valuable as it

gets right of a huge gigantic steaming pile of crap that a) should

never have been there at all in the first place and b) if it's causing

the problem is almost impossible to pin down without lots of work. So

even if b) is not true, you still get the huge benefit of a)











--

Alan McKinnon

alan.mckinnon@gmail.com







--
:wq
 
Old 09-12-2012, 03:57 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On 2012-09-12, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

> It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other
> distros.

My experience is the opposite. Before Gentoo, I used mainly RPM-based
distros (first RedHat, then later Mandrake).

I find Gentoo requires much less maintenance effort than RH or
Mandrake did. RH and Mandrake were fine right after install, but they
gradually deteriorate over time. Eventually you get to the point where
everytime you need to install or update something you end up in RPM
dependancy hell: package A requires one version of a library but
package B requires a different version. You then spend _days_ trying
to find a compatible combination of applicaation and library RPMs.
This continues to get worse and worse over time, until...

... there's a major version upgrade. Upgrading between major versions
always failed miserably, so you end up having to do a reinstall from
scratch every couple years.

None of that is a problem with Gentoo. Occasionally, an upgrade
requires some tweaking of keywords or use-flags, but it's nothing like
the RPM dependancy hell and major-upgrade fiascos I had to put up with
from other distros.

I also used Debian on a few machines. They tended to be less hassle
than the RPM-based machines, but they were fairly minimalist server
machines (no X, no "desktop environments", no monster application
packages, just mail servers for a couple mailboxes).

> And the installation is much more complicated of course.

The installation itself is more complex, but when you're done the
system works. With CentOS and Fedora Core, there's always hours of
futzing around after the install trying to get things like networking
running. For most things, anything other than the one or two cases
allowed by the installer turns out to be a mess. Don't get me started
on RedHat's two completely separate network configuration subsystems
that don't get along with each other...

And try telling Ubunto to install the bootloader in something other
than the MBR. It gives you that option if you click enough buttons,
then it claims to have done it, but it just doesn't work...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I threw up on my
at window!
gmail.com
 
Old 09-12-2012, 05:09 PM
Joshua Murphy
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200
>> Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Michael Mol writes:
>> >
>> > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
>> > > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>> > >
>> > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>> >
>> > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using
>> > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that
>> > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how
>> > large.
>>
>> Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.
>>
>> Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one
>> job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build
>> failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.
>>
>
> Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before
> I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the
> time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not
> MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)
>
> It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".
>
<snip>

And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's
systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems
is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick
often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system
around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've
already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating
as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps.

--
Poison [BLX]
Joshua M. Murphy
 
Old 09-12-2012, 05:20 PM
Dale
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-09-12, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
>
>> It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other
>> distros.
> My experience is the opposite. Before Gentoo, I used mainly RPM-based
> distros (first RedHat, then later Mandrake).
>
> I find Gentoo requires much less maintenance effort than RH or
> Mandrake did. RH and Mandrake were fine right after install, but they
> gradually deteriorate over time. Eventually you get to the point where
> everytime you need to install or update something you end up in RPM
> dependancy hell: package A requires one version of a library but
> package B requires a different version. You then spend _days_ trying
> to find a compatible combination of applicaation and library RPMs.
> This continues to get worse and worse over time, until...
>
> ... there's a major version upgrade. Upgrading between major versions
> always failed miserably, so you end up having to do a reinstall from
> scratch every couple years.
>
> None of that is a problem with Gentoo. Occasionally, an upgrade
> requires some tweaking of keywords or use-flags, but it's nothing like
> the RPM dependancy hell and major-upgrade fiascos I had to put up with
> from other distros.

+1. Should be +10 or so but you get the idea. I left Mandriva because
of this issue and the init thingy that always gave me fits. Gentoo may
take a bit longer to install something but it works like it should when
it is done. Emerge is really good at sorting out the dependencies for
the past couple years or more too. Things that used to be a hair puller
are now done with magic. Zac has some good magic skills. I hope he
read that. lol

Dale

:-) :-)

--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!
 
Old 09-12-2012, 05:27 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Joshua Murphy <poisonbl@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com>

> wrote:

>>

>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:34 +0200

>> Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

>>

>> > Michael Mol writes:

>> >

>> > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk

>> > > <mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:

>> >

>> > > * * Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

>> > >

>> > > "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"

>> >

>> > Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using

>> > MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that

>> > are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how

>> > large.

>>

>> Yes indeed, and that one is good advice.

>>

>> Not every Makefile out there is safe for -j > 1, so running it as one

>> job is valid debugging. It's the correct thing to do with weird build

>> failures as it tests if a specific condition is true or not.

>>

>

> Yeah, except I've already gone that route, or otherwise ruled it out, before

> I ask. That's why it's grating. (Even more grating when I have to spend the

> time building a package again, just to convince someone that, no, it's not

> MAKEOPTS that's the problem.)

>

> It's like "Have you tried turning it off and back on again".

>

<snip>



And yet, for many who're in the daily job of working on other people's

systems, notably on-site, the first recommendation for many problems

is simply 'turn it off and back on again' because it does the trick

often enough to be worth it (and can avoid going out to the system

around 50% of the time, depending on the environment). Also, if you've

already gone that route, and ruled that out as a resolution, stating

as much generally tends to sidestep the initial few steps.

You know as well as I do that anyone who claims to have already turned something off and back on again is assumed to be merely trying to sidestep those questions without necessarily having performed those steps, or with having performed those steps in error; that's true 99% of the time.

You're probably also familiar with putting users through the basic steps just to get yourself to a diagnostic baseline.
I'm not saying I don't understand why people push traditional cleanup recipes before actually trying to understand the problem. As an advanced user, it's just one of those extremely frustrating things, along with:

* RTFM (hey, I did!)* LMGTFY (hey, it's not like I didn't search for myself, first)* Did you try rebooting? (uh...)
In reality, nobody believes you really did your homework, presuming that if you had, your problem would be solved. After all, it's entirely statistically probable you've got another mundane problem like 99% of everyone else. And since they don't believe you did your homework, they'll ask you to do it again.

Generally speaking, I don't _get_ mundane problems on a Gentoo system. I'll probably have dug into the source code before I ask questions. The last time I had an issue on Gentoo where I needed assistance, it turned out to be a glibc bug. I must have gone through at least ten people who each had me poke at the usual suspects. I lost _months_ on some of my hardware because of this. One of those machines is still down, but only because the system had previously had a long enough uptime that boot-impacting-only hardware failures creeped in and slammed me when I went to reboot.

But, really, this all boils down to a simple case: Sometimes the user really does know what he's doing.
--
:wq
 
Old 09-12-2012, 05:46 PM
Michael Hampicke
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
>>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
>>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
>>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
>>
>> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P
>>
>
> "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
>
> "Turn off distcc"
>
> "Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's
> doing)
>
> "Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be
> unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)
>
> On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I
> never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand
> to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding
> to the wrong set of flags!
>

Try the current overlay

( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * )
 
Old 09-12-2012, 05:56 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Michael Hampicke <gentoo-user@hadt.biz> wrote:

Am 12.09.2012 15:47, schrieb Michael Mol:

> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

>

>> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>

>>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this

>>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see

>>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)

>>

>> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

>>

>

> "Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"

>

> "Turn off distcc"

>

> "Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's

> doing)

>

> "Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be

> unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)

>

> On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I

> never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand

> to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding

> to the wrong set of flags!

>



Try the current overlay



( * having an epic battle with gnome overlay atm * )




Formerly known as "try the latest trunk" or, if you're lucky, "it's fixed in $vcs".

--
:wq
 

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