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Old 09-11-2012, 10:20 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On 11/09/12 01:12, Alan McKinnon wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700
Chris Stankevitz <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:


Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:
ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). I love the USE flags. I love watching (and
questioning) what is going to be installed. I love emerge.
Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"
without thinking about anything. But in my experience on linux, this
simply isn't the case anywhere. With ubuntu, for example, I had
trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...
and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my
uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it
worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").

And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other
distros? Why do that?


They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of
that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together
and that is only possible if the ABI does not change.


Arch Linux is a binary distro (by default, at least) and it seems to
have gotten this right though.
 
Old 09-12-2012, 01:45 AM
Pandu Poluan
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Sep 11, 2012 5:29 PM, "Nikos Chantziaras" <realnc@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On 11/09/12 01:12, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>

>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:46:14 -0700

>> Chris Stankevitz <chrisstankevitz@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Gentoo is the best distribution I have used (I haven't used too many:

>>> ubuntu, fedora, gentoo). *I love the USE flags. *I love watching (and

>>> questioning) what is going to be installed. *I love emerge.

>>> Supposedly gentoo lacks being able to have a system "just work"

>>> without thinking about anything. *But in my experience on linux, this

>>> simply isn't the case anywhere. *With ubuntu, for example, I had

>>> trouble with sound and ethernet cards that I could never figure out...

>>> and the kind of answers I get on their forums drive me insane ("my

>>> uncle once said that his cousin typed this magical command and it

>>> worked fine for a little while so maybe try that").

>>>

>>> And what's the deal with these "major release versions" of the other

>>> distros? *Why do that?

>>

>>

>> They are binary distros so they have no choice. For the duration of

>> that version's life, all the packages shipped must all work together

>> and that is only possible if the ABI does not change.

>

>

> Arch Linux is a binary distro (by default, at least) and it seems to have gotten this right though.

>

>


Strangely enough, I never managed to deploy Arch production servers. Always got stuck in staging, after I tried setting up some packages, they always end up not working.


It was most likely a fault of mine, not knowing the proper incantations and druidic maneouvres required to run it properly... but I was impatient, and was already *very* familiar with Gentoo, so I switched gear completely. Within 24 hours -- most of the time taken by my obsession of 'remerging the world using graphite, 3 times', I got me a properly running staging server (and it got pushed into production after two weeks).



The beauty of Gentoo, IMO, is that I know exactly what is going on in my servers. Entering the shell, I can figuratively feel the pulse of the beast.


In my current employment, I have to sadly say that I'm no longer using Gentoo. The OS spec is set by the guys in the 'Application' Sub-Department, and they invariably ask for either CentOS or Ubuntu... which I might add, are all working well.



Again, I'm not bad-mouthing Arch, but for me it's an unsatisfying middle ground between true rolling release distro (Gentoo) and versioned binary distro (Ubuntu, CentOS). Of course, YMMV, but after my experience, I'd settle at either end of the spectrum, not in the middle.



Rgds,
 
Old 09-12-2012, 08:24 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700
Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user,
> and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to
> be to use this distro.

That's actually quite perceptive and correct.

You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to
have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff
yourself.

Gentoo appeals to the same personality that kit airplanes appeal to.
Some folks just love to tinker and build things themselves = a good
match for Gentoo.

--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 09-12-2012, 08:47 AM
Alex Schuster
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

Alan McKinnon writes:


On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:33:05 -0700
Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:


Like Paul and many others I've never looked back. I'm no power user,
and contrary to a lot of the press out there I don't think you need to
be to use this distro.


That's actually quite perceptive and correct.

You don't need to be a genius wise-ass to use Gentoo. You just need to
have some brain-smarts and a willingness to look after your own stuff
yourself.


It takes some more time though to maintain it, compared to the other
distros. And the installation is much more complicated of course.


But unless you need very basic stuff only, it pays off later I think.
When you get into trouble, there are decent howtos that usually do not
simply explain _what_ to do, but _why_. When you installed your own
Gentoo, you already know a lot about Linux. And where to look in case of
problems. Other distros often hide what's going on deeper, and that's
nice when all works, but when not, you're screwed.


It's also much more fun to actually _solve_ problems on Gentoo, than
just googling how some other Ubuntu user 'solved' his problem by trying
various commands that you do not understand what they do, but that might
also work in your case. Or not.


Wonko
 
Old 09-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:43:09 -0400
Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:

> When I wanted to install Linux on my new netbook 2008,
> I quickly found that the simplest way to get everything to work
> was to install Gentoo, using my notes from previous desktop installs.
> In Gentoo, problems are almost always just 1 layer deep,
> tho' the Gentoo Forum also tends to be much more noise than signal.

That's why we have a gentoo-user mailing list instead ;-)

This mailing list is often noted out in the wild as a very high
signal-to-noise ratio list, in my experience that is definitely true.

The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)



--
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 09-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)

Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P


--
Neil Bothwick

Windows Error #01: No error... ...yet.
 
Old 09-12-2012, 01:47 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:



> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this

> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see

> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)



Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

"Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"
"Turn off distcc"
"Just use $automagic tool" (magic is nice, if and only if I know what it's doing)

"Just use dracut" (particularly puzzling, given that dracut needs to be unmasked, while genkernel doesn't.)
On IRC, it's worse; I get all kinds of grief over my CFLAGS, even though I never put anything there that "-O2 -ggdb -march=native" doesn't expand to...I expand it so that I can use distcc without -march=native expanding to the wrong set of flags!

--
:wq
 
Old 09-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Philip Webb
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

120912 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:03:04 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>> The popular forum answer of "my granny's dog's owner once ran this
>> command and it seemed to fix her green screen so give it a try and see
>> if it repairs your password" just does not ever get proposed here :-)
> Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

Oh no ! -- that's not my grannie's dog or even my mother's famous cat :
that's all my own ... (grin) !

--
========================,,======================== ====================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
 
Old 09-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Alex Schuster
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

Michael Mol writes:


On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk
<mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:



Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P

"Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"


Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS="-j
--load=4", and I often experience build problems that are not
reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large.



"Turn off distcc"


"revdep-rebuild"

And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater &&
lafilefixer --justfixit".


Wonko
 
Old 09-12-2012, 02:25 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default Gentoo is the best linux distro

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:

Michael Mol writes:




On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk

<mailto:neil@digimed.co.uk>> wrote:





* * Instead we get, try USE="-*" :P



"Try MAKEOPTS='-j1'"




Which in fact often helps... especially for me, I am using MAKEOPTS="-j --load=4", and I often experience build problems that are not reproducible with a fixed number of jobs, regardless how large.


This can be done on a per-package basis, yet it's inevitably implied I should do it in /etc/make.conf instead.
And, really, it's not hard (for me, at least) to repro and/or track down the source of parallel-induced build failures; they tend to have a pretty clear signature in the build log. If it's a parallel-induced build failure, I can look at the log and tell you which target should have had a different target as a dependency, but didn't. Last time it happened to me (months ago!), everything I needed was in the last twenty lines of build output.

I only wish someone could pay me to do this stuff full-time, because I enjoy it. *




"Turn off distcc"




"revdep-rebuild"



And "emerge -e world && perl-cleaner --all && python-updater && lafilefixer --justfixit".

Indeed. And in theory, portage 2.2 (yeah, yeah) should make most of that unnecessary. And I think the lafilefixer portion is now a default-enabled feature in portage. Not absolutely sure, though.

(And I think you meant perl-cleaner --reallyall :P )
You should take a look at my gentoo install script and see how many of those tidy-up-and-rebuild commands it runs...and then a pair of "emerge -e @world" at the end to ensure any build-time dependent creeping changes work their way through the entire system. (And that's probably not enough, if you're looking for an absolute setup...it'd probably be necessary to compare checksums on files between runs and keep building until the setup converges...but that'd require being able to ignore anything that includes build-time timestamps.)

--
:wq
 

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