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-   -   new machine : DVD drive (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-user/695819-new-machine-dvd-drive.html)

Philip Webb 08-20-2012 10:21 AM

new machine : DVD drive
 
Apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm a bit slow to change (smile).

In designing my new machine, I assumed that I would simply transfer
the CD drive from the existing box to the new one,
but (1) the new mobo seems to have only SATA sockets
& (2) CD drives seem to be going the same way as diskette drives,
so I'm now planning to buy a new DVD drive & to start using DVDs.
I wb using them only for back-ups, not playing music or videos.

This looks like a good enough item :
ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Black R 48x W 8x OEM : CAD 24,99

Can anyone answer a few rather basic questions ?
(1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?
(2) what software do Gentoo users use to read/write DVDs ?
(3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?
-- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.
(4) anything else I sb aware of ?

--
========================,,======================== ====================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Mick 08-20-2012 11:19 AM

new machine : DVD drive
 
On Monday 20 Aug 2012 11:21:39 Philip Webb wrote:
> Apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm a bit slow to change
> (smile).
>
> In designing my new machine, I assumed that I would simply transfer
> the CD drive from the existing box to the new one,
> but (1) the new mobo seems to have only SATA sockets
> & (2) CD drives seem to be going the same way as diskette drives,
> so I'm now planning to buy a new DVD drive & to start using DVDs.
> I wb using them only for back-ups, not playing music or videos.
>
> This looks like a good enough item :
> ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Black R 48x W 8x OEM : CAD 24,99
>
> Can anyone answer a few rather basic questions ?

I'll try.

> (1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?

Yes. As a minimum have a look at BLK_DEV_SR and BLK_DEV_SR_VENDOR. You may
also need SCSI_PROC_FS for legacy applications. The AHCI drivers would
probably be enabled for your hard drive SATA controller anyway.


> (2) what software do Gentoo users use to read/write DVDs ?

From cdrecord man page (app-cdr/cdrtools):

"NAME
cdrecord - record audio or data CD, DVD or BluRay"

and of course for a GUI front you can use k3b if you use KDE applications. If
you're not using KDE consider xfburn. Not sure about Gnome applications like
Brasero that is shipping with Mint/Ubuntu these days.


> (3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?
> -- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.

Yes, +RW, -RW, but don't know much more on this other than older DVD writers
would only do one format not another and if you didn't pay attention to the
specification/limitations of your hardware you could end up buying the wrong
type of DVDs. Someone more experienced on recording media could answer this
better.


> (4) anything else I sb aware of ?

Given your adoption rate of new technology I suggest you consider buying a
BluRay player if not recorder, because I don't know how long it will be before
DVDs become obsolete too. Unfortunately BluRay devices were out of my price
range last time I bought hardware to justify paying the extra, so I can't
recommend any.

HTH.
--
Regards,
Mick

Neil Bothwick 08-20-2012 11:57 AM

new machine : DVD drive
 
On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:19:23 +0100, Mick wrote:

> Given your adoption rate of new technology I suggest you consider
> buying a BluRay player if not recorder, because I don't know how long
> it will be before DVDs become obsolete too. Unfortunately BluRay
> devices were out of my price range last time I bought hardware to
> justify paying the extra, so I can't recommend any.

Bluray recorders are still expensive, as is the media. I have a
Samsung drive that does BD-ROM and DVD+/-R* and it just works.


--
Neil Bothwick

What you don't know can hurt you, only you won't know it.

08-20-2012 12:18 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:19:23 +0100, Mick wrote:
>
> > Given your adoption rate of new technology I suggest you consider
> > buying a BluRay player if not recorder, because I don't know how long
> > it will be before DVDs become obsolete too. Unfortunately BluRay
> > devices were out of my price range last time I bought hardware to
> > justify paying the extra, so I can't recommend any.
>
> Bluray recorders are still expensive, as is the media. I have a
> Samsung drive that does BD-ROM and DVD+/-R* and it just works.

the media is affordable now....they (BD-R 25 GB) start at 1.5 Euro.
So this is less than the equivalent price per GB on a DVD.

Drives are still 2-3x as "expensive" than a DVD writer.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Andrea Conti 08-20-2012 12:39 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
>> (1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?

It's basically handled exactly the same as a CD drive, so you need the
same configuration options you would use for that.

> Yes. As a minimum have a look at BLK_DEV_SR and BLK_DEV_SR_VENDOR. You may
> also need SCSI_PROC_FS for legacy applications. The AHCI drivers would
> probably be enabled for your hard drive SATA controller anyway.

BLK_DEV_SR_VENDOR made sense when every drive manufacturer adopted their
own "standard" in designing interface protocols... with every drive made
on the planet in the last ten years being mmc-compliant, there is not
much point in still using that. Not that it hurts even if it's not needed...

>> (3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?
>> -- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.
>
> Yes, +RW, -RW, but don't know much more on this other than older DVD writers
> would only do one format not another and if you didn't pay attention to the
> specification/limitations of your hardware you could end up buying the wrong
> type of DVDs. Someone more experienced on recording media could answer this
> better.

Every modern recorder does both standards; depending on both the burner
and the reader you might find that one standard works better than the
other (i.e. has lower read error rates). Trial and error seems to be the
only working approach...

As for the standards, if you're just burning backups they're basically
equivalent. The +RW standard is theoretically more flexible as media can
be formatted in a "packet" mode which allows (almost) random r/w access,
but in my experience software support and reliability have always been
lousy, so forget about it.

+RW media cannot be erased in the same way CD-RWs are erased, -- you can
only overwrite it with new data. -RW behaves the same as CD-RWs in this
regard.

If you need rewritable DVD media with reliable random r/w access (but
this doesn't seem to be your case), there is a third standard (DVD-RAM)
which uses special disks with hardware sector marks. Drive support is
not hard to find nowadays (the drive you cited actually supports it),
but writing is slow, good media is expensive and the disks cannot be
read in most "normal" dvd drives; I have no idea about the state of
software support in Linux.

>> (4) anything else I sb aware of ?

DVDs (especially rewritable ones) are much less resilient than CDs.
Don't rely on a recorded DVD to be still readable after more than 3-4
years, because it probably won't be. While good quality (i.e. expensive)
brand media tends to be a little more durable, DVDs are not the right
choice for long-term archival.

> Given your adoption rate of new technology I suggest you consider buying a
> BluRay player if not recorder, because I don't know how long it will be before
> DVDs become obsolete too.

I doubt BD-R will ever supplant DVD-R the same way DVD-R did with CD-R.

When DVD-R came out there were no practical and affordable alternatives
for recording and transporting large quantities of data. Nowadays, on
the other hand, flash storage is ubiquitous and cheap enough to satisfy
the needs of most people. This slowed the adoption of BD-R a lot, to the
point that I'm not sure it will ever become a widespread technology.

IOW, I would only consider shelling out the cash for a BD-R drive if it
made sense for my current storage needs, not as an investment for the
future.

my € 0.02,
andrea

Michael Mol 08-20-2012 12:49 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Mick <michaelkintzios@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday 20 Aug 2012 11:21:39 Philip Webb wrote:
>> Apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm a bit slow to change
>> (smile).
>>
>> In designing my new machine, I assumed that I would simply transfer
>> the CD drive from the existing box to the new one,
>> but (1) the new mobo seems to have only SATA sockets
>> & (2) CD drives seem to be going the same way as diskette drives,
>> so I'm now planning to buy a new DVD drive & to start using DVDs.
>> I wb using them only for back-ups, not playing music or videos.
>>
>> This looks like a good enough item :
>> ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Black R 48x W 8x OEM : CAD 24,99
>>
>> Can anyone answer a few rather basic questions ?
>
> I'll try.
>
>> (1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?
>
> Yes. As a minimum have a look at BLK_DEV_SR and BLK_DEV_SR_VENDOR. You may
> also need SCSI_PROC_FS for legacy applications. The AHCI drivers would
> probably be enabled for your hard drive SATA controller anyway.
>
>
>> (2) what software do Gentoo users use to read/write DVDs ?
>
> From cdrecord man page (app-cdr/cdrtools):
>
> "NAME
> cdrecord - record audio or data CD, DVD or BluRay"
>
> and of course for a GUI front you can use k3b if you use KDE applications. If
> you're not using KDE consider xfburn. Not sure about Gnome applications like
> Brasero that is shipping with Mint/Ubuntu these days.

Brasero is a fine tool, and my tool of choice on Gentoo. (I don't use
a full GNOME or KDE desktop; Brasero works great without either.)

>
>
>> (3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?
>> -- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.
>
> Yes, +RW, -RW, but don't know much more on this other than older DVD writers
> would only do one format not another and if you didn't pay attention to the
> specification/limitations of your hardware you could end up buying the wrong
> type of DVDs. Someone more experienced on recording media could answer this
> better.

Almost all of this stuff settled a little under a decade ago, but in
the beginning there was just the DVD. The DVD had a field in its
metadata called "book type", which was supposed to tell the DVD player
what kind of DVD it was. Was it a manufacturer-pressed disc? Was it a
burned disc? Was it something else? In order to master DVDs, you had
to get specially-licensed and controlled master discs, drives and
software which would allow you to write to that book type field.

DVD-R came out, and pressures from Hollywood dictated that this DVD-R
format hardcode a value into that Book Type field that declared the
disc as a burnable disc. This way, people who tried copying or burning
movies and the like would have these discs rejected by DVD players.

Some DVD players wouldn't play back movies from DVD-R discs. Some DVD
players wouldn't even acknowledge them; as far as these players were
concerned, that particular value in the 'book type' field was still
'reserved', so any disc that used it was invalid.

Along comes the DVD+R format. The DVD+R format has some variances in
*how* data is represented on disc, but to the player that doesn't know
any better, it looks just like any other DVD. The big difference DVD+R
brought was that the 'book type' field was burnable on any drive which
was capable of burning DVD+R media, and a disc appropriately burned
would play in any home DVD player as though it were a pressed disc.
(Yay, we can has home-recorded movies again!)

Both DVD+R and DVD-R discs are sold, but I only ever buy DVD+R discs;
as far as I can tell, playback works in everything, and just about any
recorder will record to them. I have to think that the DVD-R discs are
sold only because there are still some ancient burners out there.

When in doubt, go with DVD+R.

>
>
>> (4) anything else I sb aware of ?
>
> Given your adoption rate of new technology I suggest you consider buying a
> BluRay player if not recorder, because I don't know how long it will be before
> DVDs become obsolete too. Unfortunately BluRay devices were out of my price
> range last time I bought hardware to justify paying the extra, so I can't
> recommend any.

There's something to this; a single-layer DVD only holds 4.7GB of
data. I carry around more rewriteable storage capacity than that in my
pants. (Literally; I have a pelican case full of SD and micro-SD
cards, for photography purposes.)

If this is a backup solution, it's probably better to look at blu-ray
or (even better) modern tape drive solutions. DVDs are kinda small by
modern storage standards.

--
:wq

08-20-2012 12:52 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
Andrea Conti <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:

> As for the standards, if you're just burning backups they're basically
> equivalent. The +RW standard is theoretically more flexible as media can
> be formatted in a "packet" mode which allows (almost) random r/w access,
> but in my experience software support and reliability have always been
> lousy, so forget about it.
>
> +RW media cannot be erased in the same way CD-RWs are erased, -- you can
> only overwrite it with new data. -RW behaves the same as CD-RWs in this
> regard.

You are correct for DVD-RW and with all DVD- formats, there are frequent round
robin tests with all writers vs. allr readers and all media. This kind of test
does not exist for DVD+RW and I've seen a lot of problems with media
interchange.


> I doubt BD-R will ever supplant DVD-R the same way DVD-R did with CD-R.
>
> When DVD-R came out there were no practical and affordable alternatives
> for recording and transporting large quantities of data. Nowadays, on
> the other hand, flash storage is ubiquitous and cheap enough to satisfy
> the needs of most people. This slowed the adoption of BD-R a lot, to the
> point that I'm not sure it will ever become a widespread technology.
>
> IOW, I would only consider shelling out the cash for a BD-R drive if it
> made sense for my current storage needs, not as an investment for the
> future.

Just a note:

When I got my first DVD writer in February 1998, the price of the writer
was 15000 US$ and the price of a media was 80 US$.

When I received my first BR writer, the price of the writer was 600 Euro and
the price of a medium was ~ 20 Euro.

Now the price for a medium is 1.5...3 Euro and the price for a writer is
60...200 Euro. It took 5 years for DVD to get into this price level and it took
5 years for BR to get into this price level. So where do you see a difference?

There is another difference: the fact that flash memory has become cheap did
change the interest of the people.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

08-20-2012 01:04 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> Along comes the DVD+R format. The DVD+R format has some variances in
> *how* data is represented on disc, but to the player that doesn't know
> any better, it looks just like any other DVD. The big difference DVD+R
> brought was that the 'book type' field was burnable on any drive which
> was capable of burning DVD+R media, and a disc appropriately burned
> would play in any home DVD player as though it were a pressed disc.
> (Yay, we can has home-recorded movies again!)
>
> Both DVD+R and DVD-R discs are sold, but I only ever buy DVD+R discs;
> as far as I can tell, playback works in everything, and just about any
> recorder will record to them. I have to think that the DVD-R discs are
> sold only because there are still some ancient burners out there.

Not true: DVD- allows to write this too, but the media you can buy has been
prerecorded to satisfy the film industry.



> When in doubt, go with DVD+R.

This is a wrong advise: When In doubt go DVD- as this is the official format.
There is one single exception: For Dual layer, the DVD+R/DL media gives better
results.
Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

Michael Mol 08-20-2012 01:31 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Along comes the DVD+R format. The DVD+R format has some variances in
>> *how* data is represented on disc, but to the player that doesn't know
>> any better, it looks just like any other DVD. The big difference DVD+R
>> brought was that the 'book type' field was burnable on any drive which
>> was capable of burning DVD+R media, and a disc appropriately burned
>> would play in any home DVD player as though it were a pressed disc.
>> (Yay, we can has home-recorded movies again!)
>>
>> Both DVD+R and DVD-R discs are sold, but I only ever buy DVD+R discs;
>> as far as I can tell, playback works in everything, and just about any
>> recorder will record to them. I have to think that the DVD-R discs are
>> sold only because there are still some ancient burners out there.
>
> Not true: DVD- allows to write this too, but the media you can buy has been
> prerecorded to satisfy the film industry.

I alluded to this in my description of DVD-R. Thank you for correcting
my description of implementation details, though. (Obviously, you
don't need a special burner, but you do need to buy specially-licensed
media.)

>> When in doubt, go with DVD+R.
>
> This is a wrong advise: When In doubt go DVD- as this is the official format.

I don't understand this position at all for this context. Unless
you're doing work in particular fields for the recording industry, why
touch DVD-R at all? Doing so because "it's the official format"
doesn't really mean anything; the industry and market has been stable
for years, and upstream isn't going to switch out everything out from
under people using the format. (At least, not in a way that doesn't
screw over DVD-R users as well.)

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong in that perhaps DVD-R might be
the more appropriate format, but you should give some better arguments
than "it's the official format".

> There is one single exception: For Dual layer, the DVD+R/DL media gives better
> results.

--
:wq

Pandu Poluan 08-20-2012 01:51 PM

new machine : DVD drive
 
On Aug 20, 2012 7:47 PM, "Andrea Conti" <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:

>


[snip]


> >

> > Yes, +RW, -RW, but don't know much more on this other than older DVD writers

> > would only do one format not another and if you didn't pay attention to the

> > specification/limitations of your hardware you could end up buying the wrong

> > type of DVDs. *Someone more experienced on recording media could answer this

> > better.

>

> Every modern recorder does both standards; depending on both the burner

> and the reader you might find that one standard works better than the

> other (i.e. has lower read error rates). Trial and error seems to be the

> only working approach...

>

> As for the standards, if you're just burning backups they're basically

> equivalent. The +RW standard is theoretically more flexible as media can

> be formatted in a "packet" mode which allows (almost) random r/w access,

> but in my experience software support and reliability have always been

> lousy, so forget about it.

>

> +RW media cannot be erased in the same way CD-RWs are erased, -- you can

> only overwrite it with new data. -RW behaves the same as CD-RWs in this

> regard.

>

> If you need rewritable DVD media with reliable random r/w access (but

> this doesn't seem to be your case), there is a third standard (DVD-RAM)

> which uses special disks with hardware sector marks. Drive support is

> not hard to find nowadays (the drive you cited actually supports it),

> but writing is slow, good media is expensive and the disks cannot be

> read in most "normal" dvd drives; I have no idea about the state of

> software support in Linux.

>


+RW *can* be erased, or else it won't be called RW :-)


That said, the difference is much deeper than differing metadata. Among which :


* +RW uses Phase Modulation, -RW uses amplitude modulation. This gives +RW much more robustness than -RW


* +RW blanks provide more info on the energy level required to burn, IIRC up to 4 energy levels each tuned to a certain burning speed (e.g., 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x). This *greatly* improves the success probability of burning. -RW only provides energy level info for the maximum burning speed; if your drive doesn't support that speed, it'll have to guess, and the results are usually ungood



More history :


The CD Standard was originally developed by Philips, then adapted to the data world requirements, including CD-R(W).* The DVD-R standard was originally developed by Panasonic, but Philips had a spat with Panasonic* because in Phillips' view, the CD-R standard has shortcomings they (Philips) want to fix; Panasonic was more interested in getting DVD-R out of the door asap. This resulted in Philips -- together with someone else, was it Sony? -- to independently released the DVD+R standard.



CMIIW


Rgds,


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