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Old 08-20-2012, 01:53 PM
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> I alluded to this in my description of DVD-R. Thank you for correcting
> my description of implementation details, though. (Obviously, you
> don't need a special burner, but you do need to buy specially-licensed
> media.)

Well, if you manage to get unwritten DVD- media, you need a drive with special
firmware and you even can pretend a different manufacturer ;-)

It is however hard to get this special firmware...


> >> When in doubt, go with DVD+R.
> >
> > This is a wrong advise: When In doubt go DVD- as this is the official format.
>
> I don't understand this position at all for this context. Unless
> you're doing work in particular fields for the recording industry, why
> touch DVD-R at all? Doing so because "it's the official format"
> doesn't really mean anything; the industry and market has been stable
> for years, and upstream isn't going to switch out everything out from
> under people using the format. (At least, not in a way that doesn't
> screw over DVD-R users as well.)

You seem to be anti-DVD- because you uncorrectly believe that it is related to
the film industry. You are wrong. Pioneer asked the fil industry to make a
useful proposal before Summer 2001 and as this proposal was not made, Pioneer
started to sell the A03 for 1000 US $ - together with the prerecorded media
format.

> I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong in that perhaps DVD-R might be
> the more appropriate format, but you should give some better arguments
> than "it's the official format".

I did give these arguments: There are variouy problems media compatibility of
you use DVD+ with different drives.

NOTE: DVD+ does not have a round robin check!!!!!!

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
 
Old 08-20-2012, 01:57 PM
Pandu Poluan
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

On Aug 20, 2012 8:51 PM, "Pandu Poluan" <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

>

>

> On Aug 20, 2012 7:47 PM, "Andrea Conti" <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:

> >

>

> [snip]

>

> > >

> > > Yes, +RW, -RW, but don't know much more on this other than older DVD writers

> > > would only do one format not another and if you didn't pay attention to the

> > > specification/limitations of your hardware you could end up buying the wrong

> > > type of DVDs. *Someone more experienced on recording media could answer this

> > > better.

> >

> > Every modern recorder does both standards; depending on both the burner

> > and the reader you might find that one standard works better than the

> > other (i.e. has lower read error rates). Trial and error seems to be the

> > only working approach...

> >

> > As for the standards, if you're just burning backups they're basically

> > equivalent. The +RW standard is theoretically more flexible as media can

> > be formatted in a "packet" mode which allows (almost) random r/w access,

> > but in my experience software support and reliability have always been

> > lousy, so forget about it.

> >

> > +RW media cannot be erased in the same way CD-RWs are erased, -- you can

> > only overwrite it with new data. -RW behaves the same as CD-RWs in this

> > regard.

> >

> > If you need rewritable DVD media with reliable random r/w access (but

> > this doesn't seem to be your case), there is a third standard (DVD-RAM)

> > which uses special disks with hardware sector marks. Drive support is

> > not hard to find nowadays (the drive you cited actually supports it),

> > but writing is slow, good media is expensive and the disks cannot be

> > read in most "normal" dvd drives; I have no idea about the state of

> > software support in Linux.

> >

>

> +RW *can* be erased, or else it won't be called RW :-)

>

> That said, the difference is much deeper than differing metadata. Among which :

>

> * +RW uses Phase Modulation, -RW uses amplitude modulation. This gives +RW much more robustness than -RW

>

> * +RW blanks provide more info on the energy level required to burn, IIRC up to 4 energy levels each tuned to a certain burning speed (e.g., 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x). This *greatly* improves the success probability of burning. -RW only provides energy level info for the maximum burning speed; if your drive doesn't support that speed, it'll have to guess, and the results are usually ungood


>

> More history :

>

> The CD Standard was originally developed by Philips, then adapted to the data world requirements, including CD-R(W).* The DVD-R standard was originally developed by Panasonic, but Philips had a spat with Panasonic* because in Phillips' view, the CD-R standard has shortcomings they (Philips) want to fix; Panasonic was more interested in getting DVD-R out of the door asap. This resulted in Philips -- together with someone else, was it Sony? -- to independently released the DVD+R standard.


>

> CMIIW

>


Aha, found the page comparing +R(W) and -R(W) :


http://www.myce.com/article/why-dvdrw-is-superior-to-dvd-rw-203/


tldr: DVD+R(W) is technically a better standard. Use it.


Rgds,
 
Old 08-20-2012, 02:00 PM
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> +RW *can* be erased, or else it won't be called RW :-)

Not it definitely can't.

You just may overwrite it.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
 
Old 08-20-2012, 02:18 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I alluded to this in my description of DVD-R. Thank you for correcting
>> my description of implementation details, though. (Obviously, you
>> don't need a special burner, but you do need to buy specially-licensed
>> media.)
>
> Well, if you manage to get unwritten DVD- media, you need a drive with special
> firmware and you even can pretend a different manufacturer ;-)
>
> It is however hard to get this special firmware...
>
>
>> >> When in doubt, go with DVD+R.
>> >
>> > This is a wrong advise: When In doubt go DVD- as this is the official format.
>>
>> I don't understand this position at all for this context. Unless
>> you're doing work in particular fields for the recording industry, why
>> touch DVD-R at all? Doing so because "it's the official format"
>> doesn't really mean anything; the industry and market has been stable
>> for years, and upstream isn't going to switch out everything out from
>> under people using the format. (At least, not in a way that doesn't
>> screw over DVD-R users as well.)
>
> You seem to be anti-DVD- because you uncorrectly believe that it is related to
> the film industry. You are wrong. Pioneer asked the fil industry to make a
> useful proposal before Summer 2001 and as this proposal was not made, Pioneer
> started to sell the A03 for 1000 US $ - together with the prerecorded media
> format.

No, I'm not anti-DVD-, or even anti-film-industry.

I recommend DVD+ over DVD- for the uninitiated, for compatibility and
flexibility reasons.

>
>> I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong in that perhaps DVD-R might be
>> the more appropriate format, but you should give some better arguments
>> than "it's the official format".
>
> I did give these arguments: There are variouy problems media compatibility of
> you use DVD+ with different drives.

Your description runs counter to my experience. But that's not
terribly surprising; there will of course be players which won't
handle DVD+ media, but I've found them to be few and far between.

>
> NOTE: DVD+ does not have a round robin check!!!!!!

I don't know what that is, and searching isn't turning up anything but
pages about a movie called 'round robin'.

--
:wq
 
Old 08-20-2012, 02:19 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 10:00 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
>
>> +RW *can* be erased, or else it won't be called RW :-)
>
> Not it definitely can't.
>
> You just may overwrite it.

Communications issue: You guys are talking about different encoding layers.

--
:wq
 
Old 08-20-2012, 02:34 PM
microcai
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

2012/8/20 Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net>:
> Apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm a bit slow to change (smile).
>
> In designing my new machine, I assumed that I would simply transfer
> the CD drive from the existing box to the new one,
> but (1) the new mobo seems to have only SATA sockets
> & (2) CD drives seem to be going the same way as diskette drives,
> so I'm now planning to buy a new DVD drive & to start using DVDs.
> I wb using them only for back-ups, not playing music or videos.
>
> This looks like a good enough item :
> ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Black R 48x W 8x OEM : CAD 24,99
>
> Can anyone answer a few rather basic questions ?
> (1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?

NO. just enable packet write and SCSI_CDROM



> (2) what software do Gentoo users use to read/write DVDs ?

k3b is a good one

> (3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?

sure

> -- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.
> (4) anything else I sb aware of ?
>
> --
> ========================,,======================== ====================
> SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
> ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
> TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
>
>
 
Old 08-20-2012, 03:03 PM
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

Pandu Poluan <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2012 8:51 PM, "Pandu Poluan" <pandu@poluan.info> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Aug 20, 2012 7:47 PM, "Andrea Conti" <alyf@alyf.net> wrote:

> > +RW *can* be erased, or else it won't be called RW :-)
> >
> > That said, the difference is much deeper than differing metadata. Among
> which :
> >
> > * +RW uses Phase Modulation, -RW uses amplitude modulation. This gives
> +RW much more robustness than -RW

This is also wrong:


DVD+RW use 817.4 kHz in the pregrove and periodically inverts the phase as
sector start marker. This is cheaper to press (as the stamper will last for more
press cycles) but it is not as accurate as DVD-RW and you get floating bader
quality during the life cycle of the stamper.

DVD-RW uses 140.6 kHz in the pregrove and in addition lans pits between the
groves to mark the sector start, This is much more precise than what DVD+RW
uses. Since aproc. 4 years, there is a new patented stamper method that uses
dints in the pregrove instead of pits on top of the land. This is as precise as
the pit on land method, compatoble to this method and allows stampers that are
as cheap as the DVD+RW stampers. There is no degradaraion of the stamper
accuracy as with DVD+RW, even with the new modified version.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
 
Old 08-20-2012, 03:05 PM
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I did give these arguments: There are variouy problems media compatibility of
> > you use DVD+ with different drives.
>
> Your description runs counter to my experience. But that's not
> terribly surprising; there will of course be players which won't
> handle DVD+ media, but I've found them to be few and far between.

It happened with Sony vs. Ricoh, vs. Philips writers and I could rarely rewrite
media that has been written before in another writer.

> >
> > NOTE: DVD+ does not have a round robin check!!!!!!
>
> I don't know what that is, and searching isn't turning up anything but
> pages about a movie called 'round robin'.

Why don't you just read my explanation from my previous mail?

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
 
Old 08-20-2012, 03:18 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:21 AM, Philip Webb <purslow@ca.inter.net> wrote:
> Apologies for the elementary questions, but I'm a bit slow to change (smile).
>
> In designing my new machine, I assumed that I would simply transfer
> the CD drive from the existing box to the new one,
> but (1) the new mobo seems to have only SATA sockets
> & (2) CD drives seem to be going the same way as diskette drives,
> so I'm now planning to buy a new DVD drive & to start using DVDs.
> I wb using them only for back-ups, not playing music or videos.
>
> This looks like a good enough item :
> ASUS DRW-24B1ST 24x SATA Black R 48x W 8x OEM : CAD 24,99
>
> Can anyone answer a few rather basic questions ?
> (1) do I need to configure the kernel to find the drive ?
> (2) what software do Gentoo users use to read/write DVDs ?
> (3) are there rewritable DVDs, as there used to be rewritable CDs ?
> -- among the specs are much slower speeds labelled 'RW'.
> (4) anything else I sb aware of ?

This thread has exploded into arcane info irrelevant to you. So here's
what I recommend:

Walk into any old store and buy a $15-$30 drive. Most burners these
days support burning CD-R, CD-RW, DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM.
Writing dual-layer discs is slightly less common, but still cheap and
easy to get.

Long and short of it, just go out and get a drive; just about any of
them will do what you need them to do.

As for kernel support, once you get past the SATA/AHCI learning curve,
it's a piece of cake. The standard for writing to SATA CD burners is
essentially the same as it was for ATAPI burners, and both SATA and
ATAPI are very similar (in that they borrow heavily from SCSI). Just
about any software that can write to a CD burner should have no
trouble writing to a DVD burner.
--
:wq
 
Old 08-20-2012, 03:24 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default new machine : DVD drive

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > I did give these arguments: There are variouy problems media compatibility of
>> > you use DVD+ with different drives.
>>
>> Your description runs counter to my experience. But that's not
>> terribly surprising; there will of course be players which won't
>> handle DVD+ media, but I've found them to be few and far between.
>
> It happened with Sony vs. Ricoh, vs. Philips writers and I could rarely rewrite
> media that has been written before in another writer.

Could be an issue unique to the RW space. I never hung out there. It
always made more sense to burn+verify a disc and either file it away,
or discard it when done. A spindle of discs is pretty cheap, and a
spindle of 25-50 lasts me a year or two.

>
>> >
>> > NOTE: DVD+ does not have a round robin check!!!!!!
>>
>> I don't know what that is, and searching isn't turning up anything but
>> pages about a movie called 'round robin'.
>
> Why don't you just read my explanation from my previous mail?

Which one? There are nearly twenty messages here over the span of five
hours, six of them are yours, and I can't hang on your every word. If
you're going to reply to me, include context in your replies; don't
count on my having read everything you might have said in response to
someone else.

--
:wq
 

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