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Old 04-11-2012, 04:33 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 13:51:28 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
> On Apr 11, 2012 1:15 PM, "Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 06:45:55PM +0100, Stroller wrote
> >
> > > I'm sceptical over the benefits of upgrading a 4 year old PC (short
> > > of ripping most all the guts out and starting again). I know the
> > > industry has currently settled on PCIe, but haven't bus speeds
> > > increased in the last 4 years? Are all the latest cards compatible
> > > with your Dell? If not, then you'll probably end up buying an older
> > > model, and then that will be sub-optimal when you want to upgrade
> > > your motherboard in a year's time.
> >
> > I've posted a snapshot of the Dell's internals on my ISP's personal
> >
> > webspace at http://clients.teksavvy.com/~walterdnes/misc/dell2.jpg Is
> > the long black slot PCIe? What's the short black slot?
>
> The long black slot looks like PCIe. To be precise, PCIe x16. The short
> black slot is PCIe x1, (originally) meant for low-bandwidth devices like a
> fax modem.

oh so wrong. Even a single PCIe lane is faster than an entire PCI bus.

More like SATA controllers, usb-3.0 controllers, high end sound cards.

For slow crap you have usb.

>
> For games with huge 3D textures, absolutely. For video playback, not so
> much.
>

em, just compare a 1080p with amd+working va-api backend in vlc and without.
Huge difference.

> But the main point would be that the newest graphics cards are all released
> in PCIe version only, and future mobos will all support PCIe, so it's a
> future-safe investment.

and all current. Really, can you even get agp based boards anymore? agp is
dead. PCI is as good as dead...
,
--
#163933
 
Old 04-11-2012, 04:45 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
>> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 06:45:55PM +0100, Stroller wrote
>>
>> > I'm sceptical over the benefits of upgrading a 4 year old PC (short
>> > of ripping most all the guts out and starting again). I know the
>> > industry has currently settled on PCIe, but haven't bus speeds
>> > increased in the last 4 years? Are all the latest cards compatible
>> > with your Dell? If not, then you'll probably end up buying an older
>> > model, and then that will be sub-optimal when you want to upgrade
>> > your motherboard in a year's time.
>>
>> * I've posted a snapshot of the Dell's internals on my ISP's personal
>> webspace at http://clients.teksavvy.com/~walterdnes/misc/dell2.jpg *Is
>> the long black slot PCIe? *What's the short black slot?
>>
>> > I'm sorry if this reply is unhelpful, but you give a lot of information,
>> > and perhaps that means you might be open to considering alternative
>> > solutions to the core problem.
>>
>> * If it's PCIe, so be it. *Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
>> money is helpful <G>. *Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
>> CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
>
> a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.

One thing worth noting about the difference between PCI and PCIe:

PCI typically has all devices on the same bus, or on bridged buses.
Traffic from one device at a particular instant means another device
can't communicate until that first device is done. That means your PCI
video card competes with your PCI hard disk controller and your PCI
USB card for bandwidth. Two high-throughput devices like DMA-enabled
video cards and disk controllers will get in each others' way.

With PCIe, the data channels (called lanes) are electrically distinct;
your video card and RAID card both communicate directly with the PCIe
controller, and don't have to wait for a clear channel from each other
before they can talk.

*Logically*, PCIe looks like PCI when you run lspci or similar. At the
hardware and electrical levels, though, they're quite different.

--
:wq
 
Old 04-11-2012, 06:06 PM
Florian Philipp
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

Am 11.04.2012 18:33, schrieb Volker Armin Hemmann:
> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 13:51:28 schrieb Pandu Poluan:
>>
[...]
>>
>> But the main point would be that the newest graphics cards are all released
>> in PCIe version only, and future mobos will all support PCIe, so it's a
>> future-safe investment.
>
> and all current. Really, can you even get agp based boards anymore? agp is
> dead. PCI is as good as dead...
> ,

OT:

I still have use for PCI graphics: I needed to refit two PCs with dual
port PCIe ethernet adapters. These only come with 4x PCie and many
boards only have 1x PCIe slots (aside of their PEG port). So I used an
old PCI graphics card and put the network adapter in the PEG slot.

With one board (cheap MSI) it worked; the other one (expensive Intel)
didn't work because the chipset apparently detected the network adapter
as a graphics adapter even though PCI had higher priority in the BIOS
settings.

Regards,
Florian Philipp
 
Old 04-11-2012, 07:37 PM
Stroller
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

On 11 April 2012, at 17:33, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>>
>>> I've posted a snapshot of the Dell's internals on my ISP's personal
>>>
>>> webspace at http://clients.teksavvy.com/~walterdnes/misc/dell2.jpg Is
>>> the long black slot PCIe? What's the short black slot?
>>
>> The long black slot looks like PCIe. To be precise, PCIe x16. The short
>> black slot is PCIe x1, (originally) meant for low-bandwidth devices like a
>> fax modem.
>
> oh so wrong. Even a single PCIe lane is faster than an entire PCI bus.

I think the confusion here may lie in the fact that (some?) motherboard manufacturers used to make motherboards with an onboard modem; they had the socket on a daughterboard so that OEMs could choose whether or not to install it.

The ones I'm thinking of used used a little socket which looks exactly like the small PCIe connector - I think it shared space with a PCI socket (so the OEM could choose to advertise either the modem or X+1 PCI slots).

Stroller.
 
Old 04-15-2012, 01:18 PM
"Walter Dnes"
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:30:02PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
> >
> > If it's PCIe, so be it. Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
> > money is helpful <G>. Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
> > CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
>
> a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.

I've done some looking, and I'm back with more questions. I've also
read the Nouveau-versus-NVIDIA thread. Questions...

1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot? I'm not expecting 2.0
performance, I just want full backwards compatability. PCIe 1.0 cards
seem to be rare, and have to be ordered online, while I can pick up a
2.0 card locally at a store.

2) My main "torture test" will be HD fullscreen video. Will there be
major improvement in that? That's 2D. Forget 3D.

3) The 2 lowest-priced Nvidia's at the local store are...

Asus EN210 SILENT/DI/512MD3/V2(LP) NVIDIA GeForce 210 Chipset (589Mhz)
512MB (1333Mhz) GDDR3 DVI/VGA/HDMI PCI-Express 2.0 Graphics Card


and EVGA GeForce 8400GS 1GB (01G-P3-1302-LR) nVidia GeForce 8400GS
Chipset (520Mhz) 1GB (520Mhz) DDR3 Dual Display DVI/HDMI/VGA PCI Express
2.0 Graphics Card

Any preferences?

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
 
Old 04-15-2012, 02:05 PM
Drew
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

> 1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot? *I'm not expecting 2.0
> performance, I just want full backwards compatability. *PCIe 1.0 cards
> seem to be rare, and have to be ordered online, while I can pick up a
> 2.0 card locally at a store.

They should work just fine. PCIe gen1/2/3 slots will work just fine
with gen1/2/3 cards, the speed will just be limited to the slower of
the two parts. Kinda like plugging an USB2 device into an older 1.1
port. It'll work but will be slower.

From personal experience working with a mix of Gen1 & Gen2 devices &
slots in high end workstations/servers, you won't really notice the
performance hit of running a gen2 Video Card in a gen1 slot unless you
play the latest 3D games or run some really high end 3D apps. Only
place I really noticed performance differences was in running higher
end RAID cards & NICs. Some can max a gen2 x8 slot and running on a
gen1 you can see the performance hit.

But I digress. ;-)


--
Drew

"This started out as a hobby and spun horribly out of control."
-Unknown
 
Old 04-15-2012, 02:09 PM
Florian Philipp
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

Am 15.04.2012 15:18, schrieb Walter Dnes:
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:30:02PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
>>>
>>> If it's PCIe, so be it. Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
>>> money is helpful <G>. Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
>>> CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
>>
>> a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.
>
> I've done some looking, and I'm back with more questions. I've also
> read the Nouveau-versus-NVIDIA thread. Questions...
>
> 1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot? I'm not expecting 2.0
> performance, I just want full backwards compatability. PCIe 1.0 cards
> seem to be rare, and have to be ordered online, while I can pick up a
> 2.0 card locally at a store.
>

PCIe-2.0 is fully downward compatible to 1.1 and 1.0.

> 2) My main "torture test" will be HD fullscreen video. Will there be
> major improvement in that? That's 2D. Forget 3D.
>

2D video is still rendered using OpenGL if your video player supports it.

> 3) The 2 lowest-priced Nvidia's at the local store are...
>
> Asus EN210 SILENT/DI/512MD3/V2(LP) NVIDIA GeForce 210 Chipset (589Mhz)
> 512MB (1333Mhz) GDDR3 DVI/VGA/HDMI PCI-Express 2.0 Graphics Card
>
>
> and EVGA GeForce 8400GS 1GB (01G-P3-1302-LR) nVidia GeForce 8400GS
> Chipset (520Mhz) 1GB (520Mhz) DDR3 Dual Display DVI/HDMI/VGA PCI Express
> 2.0 Graphics Card
>
> Any preferences?
>

1GB of GPU RAM looks like overkill if you just want to watch videos. I
suggest selecting the model which is cheaper, has more connectors or is
more silent.

Regards,
Florian Philipp
 
Old 04-15-2012, 02:21 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

Am Sonntag, 15. April 2012, 09:18:15 schrieb Walter Dnes:
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:30:02PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
> > Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
> > > If it's PCIe, so be it. Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
> > >
> > > money is helpful <G>. Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
> > > CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
> >
> > a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.
>
> I've done some looking, and I'm back with more questions. I've also
> read the Nouveau-versus-NVIDIA thread. Questions...
>
> 1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot?

yes

>
> 2) My main "torture test" will be HD fullscreen video. Will there be
> major improvement in that? That's 2D. Forget 3D.
>

if you get va-api working. Is it mpeg4?

> 3) The 2 lowest-priced Nvidia's at the local store are...
>
> Asus EN210 SILENT/DI/512MD3/V2(LP) NVIDIA GeForce 210 Chipset (589Mhz)
> 512MB (1333Mhz) GDDR3 DVI/VGA/HDMI PCI-Express 2.0 Graphics Card
>

you could also stay with onboard graphics.

>
> and EVGA GeForce 8400GS 1GB (01G-P3-1302-LR) nVidia GeForce 8400GS
> Chipset (520Mhz) 1GB (520Mhz) DDR3 Dual Display DVI/HDMI/VGA PCI Express
> 2.0 Graphics Card

you should stay with onboard graphics.

>
> Any preferences?

yes, AMD, they support open source.

also, va-api does work.

--
#163933
 
Old 04-15-2012, 02:22 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> wrote:
> Am 15.04.2012 15:18, schrieb Walter Dnes:
>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:30:02PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
>>>>
>>>> * If it's PCIe, so be it. *Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
>>>> money is helpful <G>. *Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
>>>> CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
>>>
>>> a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.
>>
>> * I've done some looking, and I'm back with more questions. *I've also
>> read the Nouveau-versus-NVIDIA thread. *Questions...
>>
>> 1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot? *I'm not expecting 2.0
>> performance, I just want full backwards compatability. *PCIe 1.0 cards
>> seem to be rare, and have to be ordered online, while I can pick up a
>> 2.0 card locally at a store.
>>
>
> PCIe-2.0 is fully downward compatible to 1.1 and 1.0.
>
>> 2) My main "torture test" will be HD fullscreen video. *Will there be
>> major improvement in that? *That's 2D. *Forget 3D.
>>
>
> 2D video is still rendered using OpenGL if your video player supports it.

I'm not aware of any video decoders using CUDA, OpenCL, or pixel
shaders for video decoding; AFAIK, unless you're using VDPAU you're
still using the CPU to render the video to a frame buffer. The most a
video player is going to use OpenGL for is stretching that frame
buffer to fit a window or screen, and possibly as a compositor to
place overlays like subtitles or playback control elements..

>
>> 3) The 2 lowest-priced Nvidia's at the local store are...
>>
>> Asus EN210 SILENT/DI/512MD3/V2(LP) NVIDIA GeForce 210 Chipset (589Mhz)
>> 512MB (1333Mhz) GDDR3 DVI/VGA/HDMI PCI-Express 2.0 Graphics Card
>>
>>
>> and EVGA GeForce 8400GS 1GB (01G-P3-1302-LR) nVidia GeForce 8400GS
>> Chipset (520Mhz) 1GB (520Mhz) DDR3 Dual Display DVI/HDMI/VGA PCI Express
>> 2.0 Graphics Card
>>
>> * Any preferences?
>>
>
> 1GB of GPU RAM looks like overkill if you just want to watch videos. I
> suggest selecting the model which is cheaper, has more connectors or is
> more silent.

Yeah, RAM isn't going to be the issue here.

Honestly, this is the card I'd recommend if you're not doing any heavy gaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125402

It's cheap, dead quiet and has full hardware decode of h.264.

--
:wq
 
Old 04-15-2012, 02:44 PM
Florian Philipp
 
Default PCI video cards, hardware accel, upported by open-source drivers?

Am 15.04.2012 16:22, schrieb Michael Mol:
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Florian Philipp <lists@binarywings.net> wrote:
>> Am 15.04.2012 15:18, schrieb Walter Dnes:
>>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 06:30:02PM +0200, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>>>> Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2012, 02:11:35 schrieb Walter Dnes:
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's PCIe, so be it. Actually, a post that prevents me wasting
>>>>> money is helpful <G>. Would PCIe be significantly better on the same
>>>>> CPU+GPU, or is it hype?
>>>>
>>>> a lot, lot lot lot better. No hype.
>>>
>>> I've done some looking, and I'm back with more questions. I've also
>>> read the Nouveau-versus-NVIDIA thread. Questions...
>>>
>>> 1) Will PCIe 2.0 cards work in a PCIe 1.0 slot? I'm not expecting 2.0
>>> performance, I just want full backwards compatability. PCIe 1.0 cards
>>> seem to be rare, and have to be ordered online, while I can pick up a
>>> 2.0 card locally at a store.
>>>
>>
>> PCIe-2.0 is fully downward compatible to 1.1 and 1.0.
>>
>>> 2) My main "torture test" will be HD fullscreen video. Will there be
>>> major improvement in that? That's 2D. Forget 3D.
>>>
>>
>> 2D video is still rendered using OpenGL if your video player supports it.
>
> I'm not aware of any video decoders using CUDA, OpenCL, or pixel
> shaders for video decoding; AFAIK, unless you're using VDPAU you're
> still using the CPU to render the video to a frame buffer. The most a
> video player is going to use OpenGL for is stretching that frame
> buffer to fit a window or screen, and possibly as a compositor to
> place overlays like subtitles or playback control elements..
>

Agreed. Decoding is still usually done in software but offloading
scaling and YUV to RGB conversion helps none the less. Mplayer, for
example, allows a lot of customization depending on the amount of
texture units. With high resolution displays and slow CPUs, this can
have surprisingly large effects.

Regards,
Florian Philipp
 

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