Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

Creating a new thread for this questions since mine got lost in all of
the follow-ups...


I would really appreciate a meaningful response to this question (maybe
I should go ask this on -dev?) - this has the potential to lose me
forever as a gentoo user (I'm sure none of you are crying over that, but
*I* am), and I've seen other similar comments... I'm thinking of FreeBSD
too (and PCBSD for my desktop)...


Anyway...

On 2012-03-17 12:11 AM, Bruce Hill, Jr.
<daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:

> An initramfs which does this is created by
>> =sys-kernel/genkernel-3.4.25.1 or
>> =sys-kernel/dracut-017-r1. If you do not want to use these tools, be
> sure any initramfs you create pre-mounts /usr.

Ok, I have never used genkernel, and have no desire to...

I have no idea what dracut is or how to use it...

I have a remote system that has /usr on a separate partition.

So...

How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I
know it is built into the kernel), and


If I am not, how do I do this without using genkernel? Is dracut the
*only* other option? Is it easy/trivial to set one up manually?


I cannot imagine that gentoo is just going to throw me to the wolves
like this without providing *in-depth* instructions on how to make sure
my system will boot after this update, like they did with the
baselayout-2 update...


Personally, I have no problem with not having a separate /usr any more,
except that I have 3 remote systems that I manage right now that already
*have* a separate /usr...


On that note - is it possible, and if so, does anyone have any decent
detailed How-to's on how I might be able to convert a separate /user to
one on directly on / on a running system?

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 01:44:07PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Creating a new thread for this questions since mine got lost in all of
> the follow-ups...
>
> I would really appreciate a meaningful response to this question (maybe
> I should go ask this on -dev?) - this has the potential to lose me
> forever as a gentoo user (I'm sure none of you are crying over that, but
> *I* am), and I've seen other similar comments... I'm thinking of FreeBSD
> too (and PCBSD for my desktop)...

I wonder what to do also. Part of me wonders why in the hell anyone
thinks they need to make such a change, seemingly just for the sake of
change. Having /root, /boot, and /bin et all distinct from the user
mode /usr, /home, and everything else always seemed to me one of the
genuinely clever bits of Unix. I understand that things get more
complex, and the idea of a very simple base system are long gone, but
why does that require doing away with the separate partitions?

Maybe I'm just a retro grouch in that respect. But there are other
concerns. I had thought of just copying /boot et all into /usr,
adding a grub entry to boot off that partition, and easing into the
brave new world. But I can't do that. My /usr is an LVM partition,
and making that bootable is apparently as big as hassle, perhaps more
so, than using dracut or some simpler initramfs.

I began computing back before there were integrated circuits and 8 bit
computers, let alone cell phones with more computing power than the
$10M monsters. I look forward to the day when my pocket computer
automatically links to the display and keyboard at my desk when I sit
down, or projects its display on the wall and watches my fingers on a
bare desk for keys and I don't have to worry about synching my various
computers or worrying about patent wars. The days have long passed
when I enjoyed seeing how many instructions I could get on one 80
column punched card (hint: overlap them) or how few instructions it
took to figure out the days in a month (hint: use parity) or spending
days optimizing for a drum computer ... or messing with configuration
issues because some self-proclaimed efficiency export decided that
/usr was needed at boot.

My attitude right now is to wait and see. Maybe this will all blow
over, maybe the self-proclaimed experts will find other things to do,
maybe other self-proclaimed experts will find nifty tools to make
migration easier. In the meantime, I have other work to do, and I
will just freeze parts of my system for the time being. I don't see
migrating to other systems as being worth any more than an up-yours.
Any other linux system will no doubt do the same. Any other unix but
not linux system will have an entirely different hassle. I am past
the days when dinking for the sake of dinking involved boot issues and
disk configurations. There are much more interesting bigger issues to
dink with now.

--
... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E 6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On 18-Mar-12 18:44, Tanstaafl wrote:


How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I
know it is built into the kernel),


Just guessing: If you do not know, then you are probably not using it...

Jarry

--
__________________________________________________ _____________
This mailbox accepts e-mails only from selected mailing-lists!
Everything else is considered to be spam and therefore deleted.

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

Tanstaafl writes:

> On 2012-03-17 12:11 AM, Bruce Hill, Jr.
> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
> > An initramfs which does this is created by
> >> =sys-kernel/genkernel-3.4.25.1 or
> >> =sys-kernel/dracut-017-r1. If you do not want to use these tools, be
> > sure any initramfs you create pre-mounts /usr.
>
> Ok, I have never used genkernel, and have no desire to...

I started using it when I encrypted my whole hard drive, so I needed an
initramfs. It worked just fine. I had to set MENUICONFIG="yes"
and CLEAN="no" in genkernel.conf, if not I think genkernel generates a
new .config which is not what I wanted. genkernel --install --lvm --luks
all was all that is needed then. Yes, I read that you don't want to use
it, but I thought I'd mention it just in case.

> I have no idea what dracut is or how to use it...

I also did not use that yet.

> I have a remote system that has /usr on a separate partition.
>
> So...
>
> How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I
> know it is built into the kernel), and

I'd say if there is no "initrd" line in you grub.conf, and no
corresponding file in /boot, you don't use one. And you're using Gentoo,
where there is no automatic setup of initramfs stuff, so it is highly
unlikely you are using one without knowing.

> If I am not, how do I do this without using genkernel? Is dracut the
> *only* other option?

No, but probably the easiest.

> Is it easy/trivial to set one up manually?

Hmm, not really. I did some experiments, but it was too much work
for me, and I decided to use one of the tools (genkernel) that are
available. You'd have to create a gzipped cpio archive containing all the
needed stuff, binaries, libraries, kernel modules, and an init script
which handles everything that needs be done, like mounting /usr.

> I cannot imagine that gentoo is just going to throw me to the wolves
> like this without providing *in-depth* instructions on how to make sure
> my system will boot after this update, like they did with the
> baselayout-2 update...

I'm also wondering.

> Personally, I have no problem with not having a separate /usr any more,
> except that I have 3 remote systems that I manage right now that
> already *have* a separate /usr...
>
> On that note - is it possible, and if so, does anyone have any decent
> detailed How-to's on how I might be able to convert a separate /user to
> one on directly on / on a running system?

Is your root partition large enough? Then just copy the stuff over:

mount -o bind / /mnt # makes / available in /mnt, without other
# partitions like /usr showing up there
cp -a /usr /mnt/

And remove /usr from /etc/fstab before rebooting.

If there's not enough space, you need to enlarge the partition. Very easy
with LVM, but if you were using it on your root file system, you'd
already be using an initramfs. If not, you need to take the machine down
anyway and use gparted or something from a live-cd to adjust your
partitions.

Wonko

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:

[snip]

> Ok, I have never used genkernel, and have no desire to...
>
> I have no idea what dracut is or how to use it...
>
> I have a remote system that has /usr on a separate partition.
>
> So...
>
> How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I know it
> is built into the kernel), and
>
> If I am not, how do I do this without using genkernel? Is dracut the *only*
> other option? Is it easy/trivial to set one up manually?

udev is going to be unmasked, not stabilized. By the time udev gets
into x86/amd64, hopefully the documentation necessary will be ready.

You can suscribe to bug 407959
(https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=407959), which tracks the
documentation changes necessary. Right now the only blocker is 408691
(https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408691), but I'm sure it will
be joined by more bugs in the near future.

Devs are already working on the documentation. If you have a test
spare machine, you can help them, and the whole Gentoo comunity.

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On 03/18/2012 10:44 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Creating a new thread for this questions since mine got lost in all
> of the follow-ups...

I actually read a good response, but I can't possibly find it again :)
I do recall that it said to look at your grub.conf (menu.lst) to see
if grub passes an initrd= or rdinit= to the kernel during bootup.

The other nifty hint was to add "panic=10" as a kernel parameter in
grub.conf (menu.lst) so that your remote system will reboot in 10
seconds if the kernel panics during boot. That will let you test
(remotely) if a kernel parameter like "noinitrd" breaks your machine.

> I have a remote system that has /usr on a separate partition.
>
> So...
>
> How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I
> know it is built into the kernel), and
>
> If I am not, how do I do this without using genkernel? Is dracut the
> *only* other option? Is it easy/trivial to set one up manually?
>
> I cannot imagine that gentoo is just going to throw me to the wolves
> like this without providing *in-depth* instructions on how to make
> sure my system will boot after this update, like they did with the
> baselayout-2 update...
>
> Personally, I have no problem with not having a separate /usr any
> more, except that I have 3 remote systems that I manage right now
> that already *have* a separate /usr...
>
> On that note - is it possible, and if so, does anyone have any decent
> detailed How-to's on how I might be able to convert a separate /user
> to one on directly on / on a running system?
>
>

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

Tanstaafl wrote:
> Creating a new thread for this questions since mine got lost in all of
> the follow-ups...
>
> I would really appreciate a meaningful response to this question (maybe
> I should go ask this on -dev?) - this has the potential to lose me
> forever as a gentoo user (I'm sure none of you are crying over that, but
> *I* am), and I've seen other similar comments... I'm thinking of FreeBSD
> too (and PCBSD for my desktop)...
>
> Anyway...
>
> On 2012-03-17 12:11 AM, Bruce Hill, Jr.
> <daddy@happypenguincomputers.com> wrote:
>> An initramfs which does this is created by
>>> =sys-kernel/genkernel-3.4.25.1 or
>>> =sys-kernel/dracut-017-r1. If you do not want to use these tools, be
>> sure any initramfs you create pre-mounts /usr.
>
> Ok, I have never used genkernel, and have no desire to...
>
> I have no idea what dracut is or how to use it...
>
> I have a remote system that has /usr on a separate partition.
>
> So...
>
> How do I find out if I am actually *using* an initramfs right now (I
> know it is built into the kernel), and
>
> If I am not, how do I do this without using genkernel? Is dracut the
> *only* other option? Is it easy/trivial to set one up manually?
>
> I cannot imagine that gentoo is just going to throw me to the wolves
> like this without providing *in-depth* instructions on how to make sure
> my system will boot after this update, like they did with the
> baselayout-2 update...
>
> Personally, I have no problem with not having a separate /usr any more,
> except that I have 3 remote systems that I manage right now that already
> *have* a separate /usr...
>
> On that note - is it possible, and if so, does anyone have any decent
> detailed How-to's on how I might be able to convert a separate /user to
> one on directly on / on a running system?
>
>


I'm going to add this. I have been using a init thingy that I used
dracut to build. When I boot using the init thingy, my system doesn't
work right. I am able to reproduce this too. Right now, if I use the
init thingy, I can't use part of my system that for me is vital. I
can't switch from user to root in anything, not even a console. So right
now, I'm having to boot without the init thingy and still want to
migrate /usr to LVM. That is certainly not going to happen right now.

My advice, mask udev to what works for you until all this mess get
sorted out. The first time someone tries to ssh in as a user, then su to
root, they are going to have a bad day if they run into the issue I am
having. Remember, most admins set remote systems not to allow root to
login directly as a security feature. That's what I have read anyway.

Just keep it so you can use it until you know the bugs are sorted out.
I'm still trying to figure mine out.

Dale

:-) :-)


--
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!

Miss the compile output? Hint:
EMERGE_DEFAULT_OPTS="--quiet-build=n"

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On 03/18/2012 11:52 AM, walt wrote:

> The other nifty hint was to add "panic=10" as a kernel parameter in
> grub.conf (menu.lst) so that your remote system will reboot in 10
> seconds if the kernel panics during boot. That will let you test
> (remotely) if a kernel parameter like "noinitrd" breaks your machine.

Heh. I learn a lot from reading my posts -- when I figure out why
my first reply was wrong :p

Now that I've thought about it, I assume you have only ssh access to
your remote machine, so you can't see the grub boot prompt, right?

Maybe the remote machine doesn't even pause at the boot prompt because
no one is there to watch it? I'm curious how remote servers work in
real life because in my next life I wanna come back as a sysadmin :)

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On Sun, 18 Mar 2012 13:44:07 -0400
Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@libertytrek.org> wrote:

> I cannot imagine that gentoo is just going to throw me to the wolves
> like this without providing *in-depth* instructions on how to make
> sure my system will boot after this update, like they did with the
> baselayout-2 update...

They plan to provide transition and hope to do better than with the
baselayout-2 transition. I haven't tried to dig up the posts saying
so, as there is a much noise about all this on the dev list as here.

Initramfs or move /usr to /, oh my...
 

On Mar 19, 2012 5:31 AM, "walt" <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On 03/18/2012 11:52 AM, walt wrote:

>

> > The other nifty hint was to add "panic=10" as a kernel parameter in

> > grub.conf (menu.lst) so that your remote system will reboot in 10

> > seconds if the kernel panics during boot. Â*That will let you test

> > (remotely) if a kernel parameter like "noinitrd" breaks your machine.

>

> Heh. Â*I learn a lot from reading my posts -- when I figure out why

> my first reply was wrong :p

>

> Now that I've thought about it, I assume you have only ssh access to

> your remote machine, so you can't see the grub boot prompt, right?

>

> Maybe the remote machine doesn't even pause at the boot prompt because

> no one is there to watch it? Â*I'm curious how remote servers work in

> real life because in my next life I wanna come back as a sysadmin :)

>


When I started administering remote servers, Citrix's XenServer is Good Enoughâ„¢ to deploy in production, so now it's the first thing I install on a virgin box, even if said virgin box will host only one VM.



This provides me with a usable Virtual Console through which I can watch the boot process.


Rgds,