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Old 12-16-2011, 03:07 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default DVD Movie backups

For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a
bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?

Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something
capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Old 12-16-2011, 04:06 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default DVD Movie backups

No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.


dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.


On Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a

bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?



Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something

capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.



Thanks,

Mark
 
Old 12-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>
> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
>
> On Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a
>> bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?
>>
>> Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something
>> capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark

Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
dd, can't be used for that purpose?

I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
which my wife and kid enjoy.

Thanks for the info.

- Mark
 
Old 12-16-2011, 04:51 PM
 
Default DVD Movie backups

Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> > No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
> >
> > dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
> >
> > On Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a
> >> bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?
> >>
> >> Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something
> >> capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Mark
>
> Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
> dd, can't be used for that purpose?

Yo you see that you get the same answer as you received two days ago from the
Cdrecord-support mailing list ;-)

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
 
Old 12-16-2011, 04:53 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>>
>> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a
>>> bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?
>>>
>>> Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something
>>> capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Mark
>
> Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
> dd, can't be used for that purpose?
>
> I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
> about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
> investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
> version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
> but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
> which my wife and kid enjoy.
>
> Thanks for the info.

I did exactly the same thing a few years ago, but it's been a long,
long time, so my memory on my process is very fuzzy. (It also involved
my first foray into RAID...I've got a couple hundred DVDs!) Go ahead,
count the number of times I qualify something with "IIRC"...

dvdbackup can recreate the ISO images, IIRC.

If you run a simple 'dd' on a DVD with encrypted portions, you'll get
I/O errors when it encounters the encrypted pieces. IIRC, some of the
data required to decrypt those portions is on the disc, but it's in an
out-of-the-way portion that won't show up as part of the block device.
IIRC, dvdbackup makes use of libdvdcss to decrypt the encrypted
portions[1], and writes a decrypted version of the data. *this* is why
you can't make a bit-for-bit copy; the output data would be decrypted.

There are other, later obstacles, too; once CSS was broken, some
content publishers (Bandai USA, for example) would fudge the ISO spec
and the DVD nav specs in ways that didn't break *most* hardware DVD
players, but did tend to break players which strictly adhered to the
standards, such as ffmpeg, vlc and mplayer. It also broke dvdbackup
for me, IIRC, which is why I had to resort to vobcopy in some cases. I
expect the software angle for handling these things has gotten better,
though.

[1] I don't know how it does it when dd would have hit an I/O error.
Obviously, my understanding of the workings of dvdbackup, dd, DVDs and
CSS encryption is flawed somehow.

--
:wq
 
Old 12-16-2011, 05:02 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>>>
>>> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
>>>
>>> On Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM, "Mark Knecht" <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For archive purposes is there a simple way for me to make a
>>>> bit-for-bit copy retail DVDs I've purchased?
>>>>
>>>> Assume that I've got the right sort of DVD drive, I guess something
>>>> capable of writing dual-layer DVDs.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Mark
>>
>> Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
>> dd, can't be used for that purpose?
>>
>> I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
>> about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
>> investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
>> version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
>> but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
>> which my wife and kid enjoy.
>>
>> Thanks for the info.
>
> I did exactly the same thing a few years ago, but it's been a long,
> long time, so my memory on my process is very fuzzy. (It also involved
> my first foray into RAID...I've got a couple hundred DVDs!) Go ahead,
> count the number of times I qualify something with "IIRC"...
>
> dvdbackup can recreate the ISO images, IIRC.
>
> If you run a simple 'dd' on a DVD with encrypted portions, you'll get
> I/O errors when it encounters the encrypted pieces. IIRC, some of the
> data required to decrypt those portions is on the disc, but it's in an
> out-of-the-way portion that won't show up as part of the block device.
> IIRC, dvdbackup makes use of libdvdcss to decrypt the encrypted
> portions[1], and writes a decrypted version of the data. *this* is why
> you can't make a bit-for-bit copy; the output data would be decrypted.
>
> There are other, later obstacles, too; once CSS was broken, some
> content publishers (Bandai USA, for example) would fudge the ISO spec
> and the DVD nav specs in ways that didn't break *most* hardware DVD
> players, but did tend to break players which strictly adhered to the
> standards, such as ffmpeg, vlc and mplayer. It also broke dvdbackup
> for me, IIRC, which is why I had to resort to vobcopy in some cases. I
> expect the software angle for handling these things has gotten better,
> though.
>
> [1] I don't know how it does it when dd would have hit an I/O error.
> Obviously, my understanding of the workings of dvdbackup, dd, DVDs and
> CSS encryption is flawed somehow.
>
> --
> :wq
>

Thanks for the info. It makes it a bit clearer as to what's causing
the road block vs. the sort of answer Jorg provided this morning which
did nothing (as when I asked on the cd-record list a few days ago and
the answer there did nothing either) to advance my knowledge on the
subject.

I appreciate the time it took you to respond. Thanks!

Cheers,
Mark
 
Old 12-16-2011, 05:30 PM
David Haller
 
Default DVD Movie backups

Hello,

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Mark Knecht wrote:
>On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
[..]
>Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
>dd, can't be used for that purpose?

Depends on the disk. There's some you can copy with ddrescue, some
not. Have a tail -f on the messages, you can't use dd / ddrescue /
dd_rescue if you get stuff like this in the log:

kernel: [17700.046666] end_request: I/O error, dev sr0, sector 252120
kernel: [17700.131687] sr 16:0:0:0: [sr0] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
kernel: [17700.131698] sr 16:0:0:0: [sr0] Sense Key : Illegal Request [current]
kernel: [17700.131707] sr 16:0:0:0: [sr0] Add. Sense: Read of scrambled sector without authentication

Note the "scrambeld sector". If you don't get those, it should work in
most cases. If you get those, use e.g. k3b to rip an iso-image (or
rather udf-image) of the disk, or use 'dvdbackup -M' to copy the
data. There's some "broken" disks though with intentional defects in
the filesystem etc., often from Fbal. You usually won't be able to
copy those "whole" and images witk k3b will probably be
defective. Using dvdbackup, dvdcpy, lxdvdrip, mplayer, tccat or so to
copy only the titles that you actually want (main feature, extras, but
e.g. no trailers and stuff) will be the only way.

HTH,
-dnh

--
God must love the Common Man; He made so many of them.
-- BSD fortune file
 
Old 12-16-2011, 06:03 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On 2011-12-16, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:

>> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>>
>> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
>
> Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
> dd, can't be used for that purpose?

Correct. If you use dd to copy an encrypted disk, the result will be
missing something like 90% of the data.

> I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
> about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
> investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
> version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
> but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
> which my wife and kid enjoy.

No it doesn't. You can use dvdbackup (or k9copy or ...) to copy the
DVDs to the computer and when you play them back you get all the menus
and special features and whatnot. If you want you can create ISO
images and burn them to dual-layer-DVDs, but you don't need to do that
to play them with all the features.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Now we can become
at alcoholics!
gmail.com
 
Old 12-16-2011, 06:15 PM
Stroller
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On 16 December 2011, at 17:25, Mark Knecht wrote:
> ...
> I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
> about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
> investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
> version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
> but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
> which my wife and kid enjoy.

I've been down this path fairly extensively.

Use media-video/dvdbackup and mkisofs (from app-cdr/cdrtools) to create .iso images of your DVDs.

Store these on a Samba share, then use something like the PlayOn HD Mini or the Western Digital TV Live! to watch them on your big screen TV.

These players allow you to treat .iso files on the network just as if they were actual DVDs and give you full access to the menus and extra features.

I'm in the process of trying media-tv/xbmc instead - I believe it handles menus, but haven't got far enough to test that (I just got video sorted on my HTPC, now working on sound).

dvdbackup will fail on a small number of DVDs which have been "copy-protected" by making them non-compliant with the DVD specification (IMO this is fixable in dvdbackup's code), but I'm getting at least a 95% success rate.

I have found writing dual-layer DVDs practically impossible. The failure rate is way too high - even disks which burned "successfully" are unreadable on another PC / player.

Stroller.
 
Old 12-16-2011, 06:19 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default DVD Movie backups

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Grant Edwards
<grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-16, Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Michael Mol <mikemol@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> No; you'll have to decrypt, or do without the encrypted bits.
>>>
>>> dvdbackup is probably the closest to what you want.
>>
>> Interesting. So even something that just copies blocks of data, like
>> dd, can't be used for that purpose?
>
> Correct. *If you use dd to copy an encrypted disk, the result will be
> missing something like 90% of the data.
>
>> I have no interest in tearing apart the DVD in any way. It was more
>> about the idea of a fire causing the loss of maybe $15K-$20K
>> investment over the years. I can rip all the CDs, keep the ripped
>> version here to watch on the computer, and store the DVDs elsewhere,
>> but that elimiates (generally) being able to watch special features
>> which my wife and kid enjoy.
>
> No it doesn't. *You can use dvdbackup (or k9copy or ...) to copy the
> DVDs to the computer and when you play them back you get all the menus
> and special features and whatnot. *If you want you can create ISO
> images and burn them to dual-layer-DVDs, but you don't need to do that
> to play them with all the features.
>
> --
> Grant Edwards * * * * * * * grant.b.edwards * * * *Yow! Now we can become

Hi Grant,
I should have guessed you'd be on top of this subject given your
pointer a month ago about Handbrake. (Which has been a really great
program.) Thanks for that and thanks for the additional info.

So for my continued education, if I take an encrypted movie I can
use program XYZ (Linux or Windows-based...) to create an iso image,
but that iso image won't, even if it does include all the special
features, ever be a bit-for-bit copy of the original. It's now
unencrypted and created anew. It's a completely different way to
represent the original data.

That said, if it's a _complete_ representation of the original then
the special features are there, and if written to a DVD _might_ work
in my DVD player, assuming the DVD player isn't specifically looking
for something that was on the original disc such as specifically
encrypted blocks of data, etc.

Am I getting closer?

Thanks,
Mark
 

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