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Old 11-22-2011, 08:42 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:14:15 +0100
Felix Kuperjans <felix@desaster-games.com> wrote:

> > Would somebody please give me some hints which packages I should be
> > looking at, and perhaps any use flags I might need.
> VirtualBox is quite easy for beginners, but requires external kernel
> modules and requires a GUI (what you most probably want anyway).

That's not true.

VBoxHeadless implements practically everything you can do in the gui,
and the built-in RDP server lets you connect from other machines so the
host doesn't need to run a gui either.

A GUI is strongly recommended, some thing are just easier with
pointy-clicky, but it's far from required.

External kernel modules are no big deal either. You need the same with
VMWare. It's just a package you emerge and modules-rebuild is there to
help you remember what must be rebuilt with every kernel build. These
days you have to do the same with xorg-modules whenever you upgrade
Xorg, so even that is not an issue anymore.

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 11-22-2011, 09:12 PM
Alan Mackenzie
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

Good evening, Felix!

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 09:14:15PM +0100, Felix Kuperjans wrote:
> Hi Alan,

> Am 22.11.2011 20:20, schrieb Alan Mackenzie:
> > Hi, Gentoo.

> > A friend of mine recently suggested I should install and play with
> > virtual machines on my Gentoo.

> > I've scanned /usr/portage for likely looking packages, particularly in
> > directory "virtual", yet found nothing likely looking.
> Virtual machines are all in /usr/portage/app-emulation, not in virtual
> (that is for virtual packages).
> > Would somebody please give me some hints which packages I should be
> > looking at, and perhaps any use flags I might need.
> VirtualBox is quite easy for beginners, but requires external kernel
> modules and requires a GUI (what you most probably want anyway).

> KVM (maybe with virt-manager as a GUI) is quite powerful for desktop
> virtualization, but requires processor support (but it is available on
> all recent (Core2 oder newer) non-Atom CPUs by Intel and AFAIK all
> recent AMD CPUs) and the kernel modules (but they are real upstream
> modules and very stable).

I'm kind of leaning towards KVM at the moment. Just a quick question:
by "kernel modules" do you literally mean kernel modules? It's just that
my kernel isn't built for modules (for simplicity's sake), so would that
mean me having to change this, or can I just build the stuff in?

> Xen is the most advanced solution, but maybe not the best one to play
> around. But it's supported by virt-manager, too.

> > TVM

--
Alan Mackenzie (Nürnberg).
 
Old 11-22-2011, 09:47 PM
William Kenworthy
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

On Tue, 2011-11-22 at 14:43 -0500, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> > Hi, Gentoo.
> >
> > A friend of mine recently suggested I should install and play with
> > virtual machines on my Gentoo.
> >
> > I've scanned /usr/portage for likely looking packages, particularly in
> > directory "virtual", yet found nothing likely looking.
> >
> > Would somebody please give me some hints which packages I should be
> > looking at, and perhaps any use flags I might need.
>
> I've heard you should stay away from virtualbox, due to instability
> from their kernel modules.
>
> Apart from that, make sure your kernel has kvm support enabled.
>
> From there, you can either try playing with Xen (I've got my Gentoo
> desktop as my dom0), libvirt, qemu-kvm or vmware-workstation. I
> haven't tried any of the latter three on Gentoo, and I haven't tried
> vmware on Linux at *all*.
>
> I can't make a good recommendation for which would suit you best.
> Perhaps someone else could make a suggestion or two.
>

YMMV ... VB is stable and rarely if ever breaks, app and modules "just
work" - performance is as good as vmware

vmware is a pig, you have to wait for matching kernel versions, the
licensing system sucks (I am not part of the IT staff, so because my
Institution centralises licensing, I have to get them to download it for
me every few months ... which means talking new helpdesk staff through a
process I cant participate in). The upgrade process sucks ... you need
to use the vmware overlay as the tree version often just wont build
(usually requires different patches for every version). Its tied to
having particular versions/modules/kernels and you have to actively
manage it which includes things like putting a copy in your own portage
overlay since the version you are licenced for gets punted from the
tree/overlay so you end up chasing ebuilds from the attic ... It also
currently fails glsa-check for libpng as it requires an old png version
to build (this may be something unique to my system)

In use, vmware breaks regularly ... often requires waiting weeks before
patches/updates for kernels are out so its restore from a working backup
until upgrades are fixed. VB doesnt need this.

As I said, YMMV but I am hoping to phase vmware out of my area. I have
been using vmware since Version 1 but have no love for it.

BillK
 
Old 11-22-2011, 10:01 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

On 2011-11-22, Felix Kuperjans <felix@desaster-games.com> wrote:

> VirtualBox is quite easy for beginners, but requires external kernel
> modules and requires a GUI (what you most probably want anyway).

You can use VirtualBox entirely from the command-line if you want, but
all the HOWTO and Wiki pages you'll find all use the GUI.

I use VB to run Windows XP regularly (and OS-X a few times a year) and
it has always worked fine for me.

I also use Qemu, and it's pretty solid as well.

Never tried VMWare or Xen...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! ... I don't like FRANK
at SINATRA or his CHILDREN.
gmail.com
 
Old 11-22-2011, 10:06 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2011 22:29:23 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> What I like about VBox is that you get all the useful bits in the
> open-source version.

Except USB support.


--
Neil Bothwick

What do you get if you cross an agnostic, an insomniac and adyslexic?
Someone who lies awake at night wondering if there really is a dog.
 
Old 11-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Felix Kuperjans
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

Am 22.11.2011 23:12, schrieb Alan Mackenzie:
> Good evening, Felix!
Good evening, Alan!
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 09:14:15PM +0100, Felix Kuperjans wrote:
>> Hi Alan,
>> Am 22.11.2011 20:20, schrieb Alan Mackenzie:
>>> Hi, Gentoo.
>>> A friend of mine recently suggested I should install and play with
>>> virtual machines on my Gentoo.
>>> I've scanned /usr/portage for likely looking packages, particularly in
>>> directory "virtual", yet found nothing likely looking.
>> Virtual machines are all in /usr/portage/app-emulation, not in virtual
>> (that is for virtual packages).
>>> Would somebody please give me some hints which packages I should be
>>> looking at, and perhaps any use flags I might need.
>> VirtualBox is quite easy for beginners, but requires external kernel
>> modules and requires a GUI (what you most probably want anyway).
>> KVM (maybe with virt-manager as a GUI) is quite powerful for desktop
>> virtualization, but requires processor support (but it is available on
>> all recent (Core2 oder newer) non-Atom CPUs by Intel and AFAIK all
>> recent AMD CPUs) and the kernel modules (but they are real upstream
>> modules and very stable).
> I'm kind of leaning towards KVM at the moment. Just a quick question:
> by "kernel modules" do you literally mean kernel modules? It's just that
> my kernel isn't built for modules (for simplicity's sake), so would that
> mean me having to change this, or can I just build the stuff in?
It can be built in as well. The necessary options are:
Virtualization -> Kernel-based Virtual Machine (KVM) support

and then the corresponding processor support, i.e.:
KVM for Intel processors support
or
KVM for AMD processors support

That should be usually sufficient, the "Host kernel accelerator for
virtio net" can speed up your network but is not necessary.
>> Xen is the most advanced solution, but maybe not the best one to play
>> around. But it's supported by virt-manager, too.
>>> TVM
 
Old 11-23-2011, 08:17 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

The 22/11/11, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> I use virtualbox and it's the one I recommend.
>
> The kernel modules are no better and no worse than any other
> out-of-tree modules.

You're wrong. Using the virtualbox module means you turn the kernel to
"tained crap" because of the number of problems it causes, including
random memory curruption.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 11-23-2011, 10:21 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:17:07 +0100
Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:

> The 22/11/11, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
> > I use virtualbox and it's the one I recommend.
> >
> > The kernel modules are no better and no worse than any other
> > out-of-tree modules.
>
> You're wrong. Using the virtualbox module means you turn the kernel to
> "tained crap" because of the number of problems it causes, including
> random memory curruption.
>


Care to back that up with something resembling evidence?

EVERY out-of-tree module will taint the kernel. As to whether it
deserves the "crap" moniker is a matter of opinion

--
Alan McKinnnon
alan.mckinnon@gmail.com
 
Old 11-23-2011, 10:45 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

The 23/11/11, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:17:07 +0100
> Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:

> > You're wrong. Using the virtualbox module means you turn the kernel to
> > "tained crap" because of the number of problems it causes, including
> > random memory curruption.
>
> Care to back that up with something resembling evidence?
>
> EVERY out-of-tree module will taint the kernel.

But not all virtualization solutions use out-of-tree module and from
those coming out-of-tree, few are taint as "crap".

> As to whether it
> deserves the "crap" moniker is a matter of opinion

...I'd rather say a matter of facts. :-)

Every one is free to support virtualbox but forgetting to talk about
this taint level is not very fair, FMPOV.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 11-23-2011, 11:20 AM
Joseph Davis
 
Default A helping hand with virtual machines, please.

I agree a list of issues, just broad ones, would be helpful.

I am interested in VMs, so knowing which ones have what problems,
and my own needs, would be help me make a good choice.

Please, disparage with details! ;-)

Thanks - Joseph

Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:

The 23/11/11, Alan McKinnon wrote:

On Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:17:07 +0100
Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:



You're wrong. Using the virtualbox module means you turn the kernel to
"tained crap" because of the number of problems it causes, including
random memory curruption.

Care to back that up with something resembling evidence?

EVERY out-of-tree module will taint the kernel.


But not all virtualization solutions use out-of-tree module and from
those coming out-of-tree, few are taint as "crap".


As to whether it
deserves the "crap" moniker is a matter of opinion


...I'd rather say a matter of facts. :-)

Every one is free to support virtualbox but forgetting to talk about
this taint level is not very fair, FMPOV.



--
University of Houston, Cougar Card services support.
 

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