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Old 08-24-2011, 07:10 AM
Joost Roeleveld
 
Default systemd

On Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:15:01 PM Dale wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > On Tue 23 August 2011 15:06:25 Canek Peláez Valdés did opine thusly:
> >>> Now if it had similarities to say hal, I would instantly
> >>> understand. But dbus is good and useful in all the ways that
> >>> hal isn't.
> >>
> >> Wasn't. HAL is dead. From
> >> http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/hal
> >
> > Sadly, HAL is not yet dead. It lives still.
> >
> > It lives on the production database server I just happen to be
> > rebooting as I type this (another story for another time) and will
> > continue to live here for a very very long time indeed.
> >
> > Dale can confirm this. Dale will swear in a court of law with hand on
> > bible than hal lives on in zombie form, infesting all the matter of
> > his house and computers, infecting them with their undead zombieness.
> >
> > Ye gods, it's been a long hard day....
>
> Not here. I shot hal with a silver bullet and drove a stake into it a
> long time ago. If that thing even twitches, I'll go Navy Seals on it.
> O_O Man I love the 2nd amendment we have. ;-) Even the NSA wouldn't
> be able to bring that back.

I'm missing the exorcism in there, it's probably still floating around as a
non-corporeal lifeform causing all kinds of strange issues....

--
Joost
 
Old 08-24-2011, 09:19 PM
walt
 
Default systemd

On 08/23/2011 01:19 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> all running on hardware that no-one can replace.

Okay, I give. Why not?
 
Old 08-24-2011, 09:28 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default systemd

On Wed 24 August 2011 14:19:56 walt did opine thusly:
> On 08/23/2011 01:19 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > all running on hardware that no-one can replace.
>
> Okay, I give. Why not?

Dell 23xx and 24xx generation hardware


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 08-30-2011, 11:56 AM
Alex Schuster
 
Default systemd

Alan McKinnon writes:

> On Tue 23 August 2011 18:17:17 Stroller did opine thusly:
> > On 23 August 2011, at 07:27, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
[...]
> > > And I don't really see the point of D-BUS on a server either.
> > > All the services that need to talk to each other already have
> > > working communication paths.
> >
> > Reading that blog entry I found discouraging the idea that dbus
> > might be required on my servers in the future, if systemd becomes
> > popular with distros.
>
> What's your objection to dbus? It gives you a standard message bus, is
> small, light, consumes minimal resources and provides a nice standard
> way to do IPC. Probably easier than reinventing the wheel with named
> pipes and other bits over and over.

Except for me. dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to top. And
this morning, it was using about 750M of memory. Which is less than kwin's
and Kontact's usage, but still.
But I think the problem is on my side, I run KDE4 with only 8G of memory, no
wonder I need 1.7G of swap right now.
</rant>

Wonko
 
Old 08-30-2011, 12:13 PM
Michael Schreckenbauer
 
Default systemd

Hi,

Am Dienstag, 30. August 2011, 13:56:44 schrieb Alex Schuster:
> Alan McKinnon writes:
> > On Tue 23 August 2011 18:17:17 Stroller did opine thusly:
> > > On 23 August 2011, at 07:27, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > > And I don't really see the point of D-BUS on a server either.
> > > > All the services that need to talk to each other already have
> > > > working communication paths.
> > >
> > > Reading that blog entry I found discouraging the idea that dbus
> > > might be required on my servers in the future, if systemd becomes
> > > popular with distros.
> >
> > What's your objection to dbus? It gives you a standard message bus, is
> > small, light, consumes minimal resources and provides a nice standard
> > way to do IPC. Probably easier than reinventing the wheel with named
> > pipes and other bits over and over.
>
> Except for me. dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to top.

Mine idles most of the time, no CPU is used. My computer is running for ~6h
now, dbus-daemon used less than 1.5s CPU time.

> And
> this morning, it was using about 750M of memory. Which is less than kwin's
> and Kontact's usage, but still.

Strange. Mine uses only ~20MB.

> But I think the problem is on my side, I run KDE4 with only 8G of memory, no
> wonder I need 1.7G of swap right now.
> </rant>

I have only 4GB of memory, run kde4, swap is not used at all most of the time.
There are still ~512MB free with ~1,3GB cached currently.
I do have programs running firefox with some tabs, kdevelop with a project
(~100.000 LOC), kmail, LibreOffice and 3 konsoles, each with some tabs open.
I know, I am of no help at all, but I really wonder, why your numbers differ so
significantly from mine.

> Wonko

Michael
 
Old 08-30-2011, 03:11 PM
Canek Peláez Valdés
 
Default systemd

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 8:13 AM, Michael Schreckenbauer <grimlog@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Am Dienstag, 30. August 2011, 13:56:44 schrieb Alex Schuster:
>> Alan McKinnon writes:
>> > On Tue 23 August 2011 18:17:17 Stroller did opine thusly:
>> > > On 23 August 2011, at 07:27, Joost Roeleveld wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> > > > And I don't really see the point of D-BUS on a server either.
>> > > > All the services that need to talk to each other already have
>> > > > working communication paths.
>> > >
>> > > Reading that blog entry I found discouraging the idea that dbus
>> > > might be required on my servers in the future, if systemd becomes
>> > > popular with distros.
>> >
>> > What's your objection to dbus? It gives you a standard message bus, is
>> > small, light, consumes minimal resources and provides a nice standard
>> > way to do IPC. Probably easier than reinventing the wheel with named
>> > pipes and other bits over and over.
>>
>> Except for me. dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to top.
>
> Mine idles most of the time, no CPU is used. My computer is running for ~6h
> now, dbus-daemon used less than 1.5s CPU time.

Same here:

canek@negra ~ $ uptime
11:01:52 up 5 days, 20:13, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.43, 0.50

(It's a laptop that I usually suspend at night).

>> And
>> this morning, it was using about 750M of memory. Which is less than kwin's
>> and Kontact's usage, but still.
>
> Strange. Mine uses only ~20MB.

Same here:

top - 11:02:40 up 5 days, 20:14, 1 user, load average: 0.12, 0.39, 0.49
Tasks: 163 total, 1 running, 158 sleeping, 0 stopped, 4 zombie
Cpu(s): 7.3%us, 2.0%sy, 0.0%ni, 90.2%id, 0.0%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.5%si, 0.0%st
Mem: 3891064k total, 3214892k used, 676172k free, 36072k buffers
Swap: 4192960k total, 708604k used, 3484356k free, 863416k cached

PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND
631 messageb 20 0 20548 2404 1040 S 0 0.1 1:47.94 dbus-daemon


>> But I think the problem is on my side, I run KDE4 with only 8G of memory, no
>> wonder I need 1.7G of swap right now.
>> </rant>
>
> I have only 4GB of memory, run kde4, swap is not used at all most of the time.
> There are still ~512MB free with ~1,3GB cached currently.
> I do have programs running firefox with some tabs, kdevelop with a project
> (~100.000 LOC), kmail, LibreOffice and 3 konsoles, each with some tabs open.
> I know, I am of no help at all, but I really wonder, why your numbers differ so
> significantly from mine.

Kinda similar here: GNOME 3.0, Emacs with several LaTeX articles,
Evince, Evolution, Rhythmbox, Chromium with like 20 tabs (my 4 zombie
processes are Chromium tabs), and the heaviest of all, Inkscape with 6
different SVG pictures.

There is something really wrong with Alex D-Bus; but I don't think
it's the bus. Probably some program is spamming the bus, making it use
that much memory, but I don't know for sure.

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
 
Old 08-30-2011, 11:01 PM
Alex Schuster
 
Default systemd

Michael Schreckenbauer writes:

> Hi,
>
> Am Dienstag, 30. August 2011, 13:56:44 schrieb Alex Schuster:
> > Alan McKinnon writes:
[...]
> > > What's your objection to dbus? It gives you a standard message
> > > bus, is small, light, consumes minimal resources and provides a
> > > nice standard way to do IPC. Probably easier than reinventing the
> > > wheel with named pipes and other bits over and over.
> >
> > Except for me. dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to
> > top.
> Mine idles most of the time, no CPU is used. My computer is running for
> ~6h now, dbus-daemon used less than 1.5s CPU time.

After a relogin, this is also true here at this moment, dbus-daemon uses
about 4% of one of my two cores. After 26 days of uptime, its total CPU time
is 1380 minutes, Followed by udisks-daemon with 990 minutes, and then mysqld
with 25 minutes.

> > And
> > this morning, it was using about 750M of memory. Which is less than
> > kwin's and Kontact's usage, but still.
>
> Strange. Mine uses only ~20MB.

Right now I have three dbus-daemon processes (one owned by messagebus, two
owned by my user), with a total of 4.5M only. The excessive usage of 750M (I
noticed this for the first time) probably was a memory leak. Like with KWin,
where it always happens after some days of being logged in.

> > But I think the problem is on my side, I run KDE4 with only 8G of
> > memory, no wonder I need 1.7G of swap right now.
> > </rant>
>
> I have only 4GB of memory, run kde4, swap is not used at all most of the
> time. There are still ~512MB free with ~1,3GB cached currently.
> I do have programs running firefox with some tabs, kdevelop with a
> project (~100.000 LOC), kmail, LibreOffice and 3 konsoles, each with some
> tabs open. I know, I am of no help at all, but I really wonder, why your
> numbers differ so significantly from mine.

I run some more applications. 9 Konsole tabs, two Dolphins, a Konqueror as
file manager, Amarok, TV-Browser, Kontact, Chromium with 15 tabs, KMyMoney.
That's what comes up after login, after a while of being logged in more
stuff is running. Yesterday I had a Windows running in vmplayer, that may
use 512M.
Right now, 4.7G of memory is needed (free -m, -/+ buffers/cache entry).

[Later]

Whoops, forgot to actually send this mail. Ten hours later I have another
dbus-daemon process, owned by root, but memory their usage is the same.
5250M of RAM are needed now altogether.

Wonko
 
Old 08-30-2011, 11:18 PM
Michael Mol
 
Default systemd

On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Alex Schuster <wonko@wonkology.org> wrote:
> Michael Schreckenbauer writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am Dienstag, 30. August 2011, 13:56:44 schrieb Alex Schuster:
>> > Alan McKinnon writes:
> [...]
>> > > What's your objection to dbus? It gives you a standard message
>> > > bus, is small, light, consumes minimal resources and provides a
>> > > nice standard way to do IPC. Probably easier than reinventing the
>> > > wheel with named pipes and other bits over and over.
>> >
>> > Except for me. dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to
>> > top.
>> Mine idles most of the time, no CPU is used. My computer is running for
>> ~6h now, dbus-daemon used less than 1.5s CPU time.
>
> After a relogin, this is also true here at this moment, dbus-daemon uses
> about 4% of one of my two cores. After 26 days of uptime, its total CPU time
> is 1380 minutes, Followed by udisks-daemon with 990 minutes, and then mysqld
> with 25 minutes.
>
>> > And
>> > this morning, it was using about 750M of memory. Which is less than
>> > kwin's and Kontact's usage, but still.
>>
>> Strange. Mine uses only ~20MB.
>
> Right now I have three dbus-daemon processes (one owned by messagebus, two
> owned by my user), with a total of 4.5M only. The excessive usage of 750M (I
> noticed this for the first time) probably was a memory leak. Like with KWin,
> where it always happens after some days of being logged in.
>
>> > But I think the problem is on my side, I run KDE4 with only 8G of
>> > memory, no wonder I need 1.7G of swap right now.
>> > </rant>
>>
>> I have only 4GB of memory, run kde4, swap is not used at all most of the
>> time. There are still ~512MB free with ~1,3GB cached currently.
>> I do have programs running firefox with some tabs, kdevelop with a
>> project (~100.000 LOC), kmail, LibreOffice and 3 konsoles, each with some
>> tabs open. I know, I am of no help at all, but I really wonder, why your
>> numbers differ so significantly from mine.
>
> I run some more applications. 9 Konsole tabs, two Dolphins, a Konqueror as
> file manager, Amarok, TV-Browser, Kontact, Chromium with 15 tabs, KMyMoney.
> That's what comes up after login, after a while of being logged in more
> stuff is running. Yesterday I had a Windows running in vmplayer, that may
> use 512M.
> Right now, 4.7G of memory is needed (free -m, -/+ buffers/cache entry).
>
> [Later]
>
> Whoops, forgot to actually send this mail. Ten hours later I have another
> dbus-daemon process, owned by root, but memory their usage is the same.
> 5250M of RAM are needed now altogether.

Very, very weird. You all seem to have some weird issues with
dbus-daemon that I don't have.

(times retrieved with ps axS, memory consumption retrieved with htop)

On my 77-day uptime server runing Debian 5, dbus's total time is 0:00.
(That's with ps axS) virtual memory of 21M, resident of 900K.

On my gentoo desktop, 8 days' uptime, I show two dbus-daemon
processes, both with 0:00. Both with virtual of 19M. One with resident
of 984K, one with resident of 808K.

On my router, Debian 6, with 4 days' uptime, ps axS shows 0:00 for
consumed time. 23M virtual, 968K resident.


--
:wq
 
Old 08-31-2011, 01:13 PM
walt
 
Default systemd

On 08/30/2011 04:56 AM, Alex Schuster wrote:
> Alan McKinnon writes:

> dbus-daemon often uses 10-20% of my CPU according to top.

Have you tried using dbus-monitor? It may tell you if some app is
being inappropriate.
 
Old 09-02-2011, 07:33 AM
Mick
 
Default systemd

On Friday 02 Sep 2011 00:27:58 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 18:32:11 -0400
>
> Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Happily, there was a nice pretty lady from Samsung in the office 3
> > > months ago wanting to sell the 900X Macbook Air knock-off into the
> > > company. The IT manager didn't know what to do with the demo she
> > > left behind so I knicked it for myself (sans paperwork of course.
> > > Makes it easier to prolong how long it takes to test properly) and
> > > it's running Ubuntu. Memory issues are a thing of the past and
> > > everything behaves just like it should. Even <gasp> flash.
> >
> > That saddens me a little. Of all the friends and coworkers I have, I'm
> > the only one left using Gentoo. All of them switched to Fedora, or
> > Ubuntu, or OpenSuSE.
>
> I completely understand how you feel. But, I'm enjoying this break from
> Gentoo. Note I said "break", not "leave behind".
>
> It will take 3 to 6 weeks for me to make up my mind what monster Dell I
> want next, assault Purchasing to make them approve it then have it
> built in Ireland and shipped to ZA.

I must have words with Dell!!!

Mine was built in China and shipped from China ... twice, because the
horrendous courier they use did not deliver it.


> That's about enough time I think to run into the Ubuntu "you will do it
> our way with the deps we want you to have" philosophy enough times to
> drive me back to gentoo.

I have a laptop which is only used occasionally and (K)Ubuntu is a good use
case for it. Keeping it up to date does not take long with more or less
vanilla Kubuntu settings and because the user needs are not particularly
demanding Ubuntu has filled the OS role admirably. Doing this with Gentoo
would require much more attention and time from me. However, I would not use
Ubuntu for my needs. Very much like Alan says, there is an annoying
underlying feeling of "all your OS belongs to us".

> But the next machine will not have KDE on it -
> all this RAM nonsense started by trying to get Akonadi to work, for very
> loose definitions of "work", such as "show me my mail sometime today"
>
> e17 beckons.

Let us know which mail client you end up with. Although I now use e17 and
before that I used a rather edited Fluxbox (I avoid bloatware DEs if I can
help it) I am still using kmail because attempts to adopt other mail clients
ended up in disappointment.
--
Regards,
Mick
 

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