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Old 02-05-2011, 05:43 PM
Cedric Sodhi
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.

/var is expected to be heavily written and read from, as it is the case
with the portage tree.

It's possibly subject to fragmentation and small file sizes and heavy
changes, which is usually accounted for my choosing an appropriate
filesystem and configuring it accordingly.

/usr is expected to be a static directory with mostly read access and
few to no changes on a running system.

This issue seems to have been ignored for a long time. When I asked
about it, I met two types of responses:

a) Those who thought about it and agreed, that portage should be moved
b) Those who replied "deal with it"

If you can think of good counter arguement which *logically* supports
that portage should by default reside in /usr (including the distfiles
and everything else variable) please tell us. If not, please refrain
from logically irrelevant statements such as the above, "you can always
do <insert some random workarround here>" or similar ones.

If you have further arguments to support my point, I'd also welcome them
to the discussion,

I expect 90% or more of the real arguments to support my point.

I've also heard rumours that such an outcome has already been there in
the past, yet, gentoo developers ignored it and kept portage in /usr for
unknown and most likely unlogical reasons. I believe these rumours.

If again, the logical conclusion will be that portage should be moved
but it is not acted upon but logic is ignored, please ask yourself what
kind of distribution we are.

"It is a community built around a distribution which is driven by
more than 300 developers and thousands of users. "


regards, MD
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:21 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

where do the bsds put their ports?

also: just set the PORTDIR variable wherever you want it to point. There is no
reason to annoy the rest of humanity with a mailing list point complaining
about a perceived problem that is none.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:27 PM
Meik Frischke
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

On Saturday 05 February 2011 19:43:11, Cedric Sodhi wrote:
> There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
> not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.
>
> /var is expected to be heavily written and read from, as it is the case
> with the portage tree.
>
> It's possibly subject to fragmentation and small file sizes and heavy
> changes, which is usually accounted for my choosing an appropriate
> filesystem and configuring it accordingly.
>
> /usr is expected to be a static directory with mostly read access and
> few to no changes on a running system.
>
> This issue seems to have been ignored for a long time. When I asked
> about it, I met two types of responses:
>
> a) Those who thought about it and agreed, that portage should be moved
> b) Those who replied "deal with it"
>
> If you can think of good counter arguement which *logically* supports
> that portage should by default reside in /usr (including the distfiles
> and everything else variable) please tell us. If not, please refrain
> from logically irrelevant statements such as the above, "you can always
> do <insert some random workarround here>" or similar ones.
>
> If you have further arguments to support my point, I'd also welcome them
> to the discussion,
>
> I expect 90% or more of the real arguments to support my point.
>
> I've also heard rumours that such an outcome has already been there in
> the past, yet, gentoo developers ignored it and kept portage in /usr for
> unknown and most likely unlogical reasons. I believe these rumours.
>
> If again, the logical conclusion will be that portage should be moved
> but it is not acted upon but logic is ignored, please ask yourself what
> kind of distribution we are.
>
> "It is a community built around a distribution which is driven by
> more than 300 developers and thousands of users. "
>
>
> regards, MD
>

Portage DEFAULTS to /usr/portage as the location for the tree etc. While that may be wrong, you can always change the PORTDIR variable in make.conf ( same with DISTDIR and PKGDIR ). Since it's something you can change in the very beginning of the installation, I wouldn't count that as a workaround ( as symlinking, (re)mounting etc. would be ). I don't see where the problem is ? There is nothing wrong with portage itself in that matter. One could propose to change the default PORTDIR in make.globals and in the docs though.

Sincerely

Meik Frischke
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:27 PM
Alex Schuster
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

Cedric Sodhi writes:

> There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
> not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.
>
> /var is expected to be heavily written and read from, as it is the case
> with the portage tree.

That's why I have /var/portage, with subdirectories tree, distfiles,
local, layman, packges and (for my 32bit chroot) packages.32. That's how
I think it should be, so I change it that way. Recently I also began
moving /var/tmp/portage there, so my /var partition could no longer
become full because of emerging openoffice.


> If again, the logical conclusion will be that portage should be moved
> but it is not acted upon but logic is ignored, please ask yourself what
> kind of distribution we are.
>
> "It is a community built around a distribution which is driven by
> more than 300 developers and thousands of users. "

Well, I agree with your point, and I find it strange that this has not
been changed, but - I don't care too much about it. I make a few quick
changes when I install a Gentoo, and that's it.

Wonko
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 10:43 AM, Cedric Sodhi <manday@gmx.net> wrote:
> There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
> not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.
>
<SNIP>

I have no opinion on the subject really, but can't you build a link
from /usr/portage to anywhere you want to put it? I put
/usr/portage/distfiles on a separate partition as I hate running out
of disk space on my root partition when I've not cleaned up distfiles.

The only reason I could give for not changing is I don't want to teach
my fingers /var/portage vs what they already know. That's a pretty
weak reason.

- Mark
 
Old 02-05-2011, 06:34 PM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

On 02/05/2011 08:43 PM, Cedric Sodhi wrote:

There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.
[...]
If you can think of good counter arguement which *logically* supports
that portage should by default reside in /usr (including the distfiles
and everything else variable) please tell us. If not, please refrain
from logically irrelevant statements such as the above, "you can always
do<insert some random workarround here>" or similar ones.


How is utilizing the fully supported configuration options of portage a
"random workaround"? It's neither random, *nor* a workaround.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

Apparently, though unproven, at 20:43 on Saturday 05 February 2011, Cedric
Sodhi did opine thusly:

> There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
> not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.

I've been saying this for years. I always change PORTDIR everywhere to
/var/portage


> /var is expected to be heavily written and read from, as it is the case
> with the portage tree.
>
> It's possibly subject to fragmentation and small file sizes and heavy
> changes, which is usually accounted for my choosing an appropriate
> filesystem and configuring it accordingly.

100% correct. The tree is a database.

No-one in their right mind would put MySQL data dirs in /usr....
Juts like no-one would put the portage build dir in /usr either

>
> /usr is expected to be a static directory with mostly read access and
> few to no changes on a running system.
>
> This issue seems to have been ignored for a long time. When I asked
> about it, I met two types of responses:
>
> a) Those who thought about it and agreed, that portage should be moved
> b) Those who replied "deal with it"
>
> If you can think of good counter arguement which *logically* supports
> that portage should by default reside in /usr (including the distfiles
> and everything else variable) please tell us.

Here's the real reason:

FreeBSD puts ports in /usr.
So Daniel put portage in /usr when he ported ports to portage
Everyone else since has left it there.

Sometimes the obvious reason really is the right one.


> If not, please refrain
> from logically irrelevant statements such as the above, "you can always
> do <insert some random workarround here>" or similar ones.
>
> If you have further arguments to support my point, I'd also welcome them
> to the discussion,
>
> I expect 90% or more of the real arguments to support my point.
>
> I've also heard rumours that such an outcome has already been there in
> the past, yet, gentoo developers ignored it and kept portage in /usr for
> unknown and most likely unlogical reasons. I believe these rumours.
>
> If again, the logical conclusion will be that portage should be moved
> but it is not acted upon but logic is ignored, please ask yourself what
> kind of distribution we are.
>
> "It is a community built around a distribution which is driven by
> more than 300 developers and thousands of users. "

It's trivially easy to change, so there's no good reason not to.

Reset PORTDIR, edit layman's configs, create new directories.
In the vast majority of cases that's all that's required.


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:12 PM
Dale
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

Cedric Sodhi wrote:

There are several reasons why portage, neither the tree nor (especially
not) the distfiles should reside in /usr.

/var is expected to be heavily written and read from, as it is the case
with the portage tree.

It's possibly subject to fragmentation and small file sizes and heavy
changes, which is usually accounted for my choosing an appropriate
filesystem and configuring it accordingly.

/usr is expected to be a static directory with mostly read access and
few to no changes on a running system.

This issue seems to have been ignored for a long time. When I asked
about it, I met two types of responses:

a) Those who thought about it and agreed, that portage should be moved
b) Those who replied "deal with it"

If you can think of good counter arguement which *logically* supports
that portage should by default reside in /usr (including the distfiles
and everything else variable) please tell us. If not, please refrain
from logically irrelevant statements such as the above, "you can always
do<insert some random workarround here>" or similar ones.

If you have further arguments to support my point, I'd also welcome them
to the discussion,

I expect 90% or more of the real arguments to support my point.

I've also heard rumours that such an outcome has already been there in
the past, yet, gentoo developers ignored it and kept portage in /usr for
unknown and most likely unlogical reasons. I believe these rumours.

If again, the logical conclusion will be that portage should be moved
but it is not acted upon but logic is ignored, please ask yourself what
kind of distribution we are.

"It is a community built around a distribution which is driven by
more than 300 developers and thousands of users. "


regards, MD





Moving the tree out of /usr has been discussed by the devs several
times. Each time, they have decided not to move it. I doubt that is
going to change anytime soon.


On another note, you can edit make.conf and put it anywhere you want.
It being in /usr is not etched in stone or anything. This is from my
make.conf:


# PORTDIR is the location of the portage tree. This is the repository
# for all profile information as well as all ebuilds. This directory
# itself can reach 200M. WE DO NOT RECOMMEND that you change this.
#PORTDIR=/usr/portage
#

I don't think that warning is in the newer ones. That one came from the
1.4 days. Sort of a old install. ;-)


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:23 PM
Cedric Sodhi
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

Replying to the three before messages which basically made the point
that one can change the location manyually.

I'm aware of that and as I've pointed out I consider it irrelevant to
the point that I'm making (with which you appear to agree at least
principally), that is, that it should not be the default.

A wrong default is wrong. What kind of an aittude is it to acccept a
flawed default and just make it right for one self.

I for my part have of course changed it but I want to straighten it out
for the whole distribution, for those who happen not to have read about
how to change it, for those who can't be arsed to fix every single bit
that gentoo makes wrong by its own.

And what bothers me most is that, as you said, it hasnt been changed in
a decade, out of pure ignorance, given that it has been brought up
several times already.

It does not conform with any accepted standard, it is wrong per se, it
should be changed.

THIS is the point, please, as I already said in my first email, don't
make any more suggestions how one can change this for oneself. It's
irrelevant to the issue.
 
Old 02-05-2011, 07:36 PM
Cedric Sodhi
 
Default Portage is misplaced in /usr

You know... I appreciate all your helpful "if you want to move portage
to /var you can do it by..." 'suggestions', but, can you imagine the
following situation:

You push a change to a repository, on your way to work you realize that
there was an error in the commit so as soon as you get to work you send
out an email to everyone "Please do not pull until today evening when I
have reverted that". And when you're back home and check the status you
see that about everyone who could possibly have read you mail pulled
from the repo.


A parabel for the technically affine...
 

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