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Old 01-21-2011, 05:45 PM
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

Hi,

I got a little confused about the sense or nonsense of AHCI vs. IDE.

I run a ASUS Crosshair IV Formula, which BIOS has a menu entry to
configure the SATA ports either for IDE or AHCI or RAID. Forget RAID
for a momen -- I dont use it (nothing against RAID !

My box uses a linux 2.6.37 vanilla kernel.

The kernel config has been set to

CONFIG_SATA_AHCI=y
# CONFIG_SATA_AHCI_PLATFORM is not set

In the dmesg output I found this:

pci 0000:00:11.0: set SATA to AHCI mode
ahci 0000:00:11.0: AHCI 0001.0200 32 slots 4 ports 3 Gbps 0xf impl SATA mode
ahci 0000:07:00.0: AHCI 0001.0000 32 slots 2 ports 3 Gbps 0x3 impl SATA mode

despite the fact that AHCI is disabled in the BIOS settings (using
IDE).

I did an experiment an disabled AHCI in the kernel (to make the kernel
settings consistent with the BIOS.)

Result: The kernel did not find the root partition.

In the meanwhile I do not understand all this never more.

Why does the kernel boots only, if the BIOS says "IDE!" and linux
insists on "AHCI!"...and waht ist the result?

Best regards,
mcc
 
Old 01-21-2011, 05:53 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Friday 21 January 2011 19:45:07 meino.cramer@gmx.de wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I got a little confused about the sense or nonsense of AHCI vs. IDE.
>
> I run a ASUS Crosshair IV Formula, which BIOS has a menu entry to
> configure the SATA ports either for IDE or AHCI or RAID. Forget RAID
> for a momen -- I dont use it (nothing against RAID !
>
> My box uses a linux 2.6.37 vanilla kernel.
>
> The kernel config has been set to
>
> CONFIG_SATA_AHCI=y
> # CONFIG_SATA_AHCI_PLATFORM is not set
>
> In the dmesg output I found this:
>
> pci 0000:00:11.0: set SATA to AHCI mode
> ahci 0000:00:11.0: AHCI 0001.0200 32 slots 4 ports 3 Gbps 0xf impl SATA
> mode ahci 0000:07:00.0: AHCI 0001.0000 32 slots 2 ports 3 Gbps 0x3 impl
> SATA mode
>
> despite the fact that AHCI is disabled in the BIOS settings (using
> IDE).
>
> I did an experiment an disabled AHCI in the kernel (to make the kernel
> settings consistent with the BIOS.)
>
> Result: The kernel did not find the root partition.
>
> In the meanwhile I do not understand all this never more.
>
> Why does the kernel boots only, if the BIOS says "IDE!" and linux
> insists on "AHCI!"...and waht ist the result?
>
> Best regards,
> mcc

so, why are you doing soemthing incredible stupid in the first place?
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:08 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:45 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I got a little confused about the sense or nonsense of AHCI vs. IDE.
>
> I run a ASUS Crosshair IV Formula, which BIOS has a menu entry to
> configure the SATA ports either for IDE or AHCI or RAID. Forget RAID
> for a momen -- I dont use it (nothing against RAID !
>
> My box uses a linux 2.6.37 vanilla kernel.
>
> The kernel config has been set to
>
> * *CONFIG_SATA_AHCI=y
> * *# CONFIG_SATA_AHCI_PLATFORM is not set
>
> In the dmesg output I found this:
>
> * *pci 0000:00:11.0: set SATA to AHCI mode
> * *ahci 0000:00:11.0: AHCI 0001.0200 32 slots 4 ports 3 Gbps 0xf impl SATA mode
> * *ahci 0000:07:00.0: AHCI 0001.0000 32 slots 2 ports 3 Gbps 0x3 impl SATA mode
>
> despite the fact that AHCI is disabled in the BIOS settings (using
> IDE).
>
> I did an experiment an disabled AHCI in the kernel (to make the kernel
> settings consistent with the BIOS.)
>
> Result: The kernel did not find the root partition.
>
> In the meanwhile I do not understand all this never more.
>
> Why does the kernel boots only, if the BIOS says "IDE!" and linux
> insists on "AHCI!"...and waht ist the result?
>
> Best regards,
> mcc

Hi meino,
It's disappointing that Volker insists on sending these pissy
little responses which don't advance the conversation. Sorry for that.

Not sure I can lend any weight to the argument but it's my belief
that your installation of Gentoo Linux isn't using BIOS to access the
disk at all. Once the system boots and loads the kernel, then the
kernel loads drivers (or uses what you built into the kernel) and
takes over control of the hardware using the AHCI drivers. If the
kernel doesn't use BIOS disk calls (INT13?) then it doesn't care what
the BIOS thinks because the BIOS is not longer involved. It just talks
directly to the hardware.

I'm happy to be corrected (by Volker I'm sure) but that's my guess
as to what you're seeing.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Mark
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:12 PM
kashani
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On 1/21/2011 10:53 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:


so, why are you doing soemthing incredible stupid in the first place?



How about you go have some coffee, maybe have a banana to even out the
blood sugar, take a walk around the block, and try this email again
without being a complete ass?


kashani
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:16 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Friday 21 January 2011 11:08:39 Mark Knecht wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:45 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I got a little confused about the sense or nonsense of AHCI vs. IDE.
> >
> > I run a ASUS Crosshair IV Formula, which BIOS has a menu entry to
> > configure the SATA ports either for IDE or AHCI or RAID. Forget RAID
> > for a momen -- I dont use it (nothing against RAID !
> >
> > My box uses a linux 2.6.37 vanilla kernel.
> >
> > The kernel config has been set to
> >
> > CONFIG_SATA_AHCI=y
> > # CONFIG_SATA_AHCI_PLATFORM is not set
> >
> > In the dmesg output I found this:
> >
> > pci 0000:00:11.0: set SATA to AHCI mode
> > ahci 0000:00:11.0: AHCI 0001.0200 32 slots 4 ports 3 Gbps 0xf impl
> > SATA mode ahci 0000:07:00.0: AHCI 0001.0000 32 slots 2 ports 3 Gbps 0x3
> > impl SATA mode
> >
> > despite the fact that AHCI is disabled in the BIOS settings (using
> > IDE).
> >
> > I did an experiment an disabled AHCI in the kernel (to make the kernel
> > settings consistent with the BIOS.)
> >
> > Result: The kernel did not find the root partition.
> >
> > In the meanwhile I do not understand all this never more.
> >
> > Why does the kernel boots only, if the BIOS says "IDE!" and linux
> > insists on "AHCI!"...and waht ist the result?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > mcc
>
> Hi meino,
> It's disappointing that Volker insists on sending these pissy
> little responses which don't advance the conversation. Sorry for that.
>
> Not sure I can lend any weight to the argument but it's my belief
> that your installation of Gentoo Linux isn't using BIOS to access the
> disk at all. Once the system boots and loads the kernel, then the
> kernel loads drivers (or uses what you built into the kernel) and
> takes over control of the hardware using the AHCI drivers. If the
> kernel doesn't use BIOS disk calls (INT13?) then it doesn't care what
> the BIOS thinks because the BIOS is not longer involved. It just talks
> directly to the hardware.
>
> I'm happy to be corrected (by Volker I'm sure) but that's my guess
> as to what you're seeing.

you are confusing bios calls and bios programming chips as.... also - is there
any good reason to use IDE mode? Any? At all?
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:27 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Friday 21 January 2011 11:12:34 kashani wrote:
> On 1/21/2011 10:53 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > so, why are you doing soemthing incredible stupid in the first place?
>
> How about you go have some coffee, maybe have a banana to even out the
> blood sugar, take a walk around the block, and try this email again
> without being a complete ass?
>
> kashani

I am sorry that over the years I lost my patience with none-existing problems.
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:32 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>>
>> * *I'm happy to be corrected (by Volker I'm sure) but that's my guess
>> as to what you're seeing.
>
> you are confusing bios calls and bios programming chips as.... also - is there
> any good reason to use IDE mode? Any? At all?

I don't believe I'm 'confusing bios calls with bios programming'. The
BIOS can do whatever it wants to in programming the chips as long as
grub can still find the kernel. After grub finds the kernel the kernel
is free to override whatever chip programming the BIOS has done and
reprogram the chips as it sees best.

I think the issue meino possibly has is that he likely didn't include
an Int13 type driver in the kernel or most likely his system would
have booted like it did in the _very_ old days.

I agree that there isn't any good reason I know of to use IDE mode
unless the other modes the BIOS provides don't work.

I cannot get into my Asus BIOS at the moment, but as I remember it
Asus gave me something like

IDE
AHCI
AHCI + compatibility

IIRC I had to use the last one to get mine to boot but I may be wrong
about that. I only mention this as meino is also using Asus so he
might look for similar options.

- Mark
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:35 PM
Mark Knecht
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Friday 21 January 2011 11:12:34 kashani wrote:
>> On 1/21/2011 10:53 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> > so, why are you doing soemthing incredible stupid in the first place?
>>
>> How about you go have some coffee, maybe have a banana to even out the
>> blood sugar, take a walk around the block, and try this email again
>> without being a complete ass?
>>
>> kashani
>
> I am sorry that over the years I lost my patience with none-existing problems.
>
>

So why rip the guy a new one? You have years of experience? We don't
know meino's experience level. He was clearly just doing experiments
and trying to learn something. You pop up and try to push him down
does him no good.

Mom said "If you don't have anything nice to say then say nothing at all".

- Mark
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:40 PM
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> [11-01-21 20:16]:
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:45 AM, <meino.cramer@gmx.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I got a little confused about the sense or nonsense of AHCI vs. IDE.
> >
> > I run a ASUS Crosshair IV Formula, which BIOS has a menu entry to
> > configure the SATA ports either for IDE or AHCI or RAID. Forget RAID
> > for a momen -- I dont use it (nothing against RAID !
> >
> > My box uses a linux 2.6.37 vanilla kernel.
> >
> > The kernel config has been set to
> >
> > * *CONFIG_SATA_AHCI=y
> > * *# CONFIG_SATA_AHCI_PLATFORM is not set
> >
> > In the dmesg output I found this:
> >
> > * *pci 0000:00:11.0: set SATA to AHCI mode
> > * *ahci 0000:00:11.0: AHCI 0001.0200 32 slots 4 ports 3 Gbps 0xf impl SATA mode
> > * *ahci 0000:07:00.0: AHCI 0001.0000 32 slots 2 ports 3 Gbps 0x3 impl SATA mode
> >
> > despite the fact that AHCI is disabled in the BIOS settings (using
> > IDE).
> >
> > I did an experiment an disabled AHCI in the kernel (to make the kernel
> > settings consistent with the BIOS.)
> >
> > Result: The kernel did not find the root partition.
> >
> > In the meanwhile I do not understand all this never more.
> >
> > Why does the kernel boots only, if the BIOS says "IDE!" and linux
> > insists on "AHCI!"...and waht ist the result?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > mcc
>
> Hi meino,
> It's disappointing that Volker insists on sending these pissy
> little responses which don't advance the conversation. Sorry for that.
>
> Not sure I can lend any weight to the argument but it's my belief
> that your installation of Gentoo Linux isn't using BIOS to access the
> disk at all. Once the system boots and loads the kernel, then the
> kernel loads drivers (or uses what you built into the kernel) and
> takes over control of the hardware using the AHCI drivers. If the
> kernel doesn't use BIOS disk calls (INT13?) then it doesn't care what
> the BIOS thinks because the BIOS is not longer involved. It just talks
> directly to the hardware.
>
> I'm happy to be corrected (by Volker I'm sure) but that's my guess
> as to what you're seeing.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>

Hi Mark,

thank you for your kind words. There is no need to feel sorry for
others. The behaviour of those are definelty neither your fault nor
your problem

For me I have learned that it doesn't matter, whether the result
of an experiment is positive or negative as long as one is prepared
to learn from it. If one insisits on doing only so called "non stupid
things" one will miss a lot of results sooner or later...

I thought (which implies "I dont know for sure"), that the BIOS do
enable/disable certain features, the kernels reads that settings and
act accordingly -- but definitely this is not true for all settings.

Does the contents of a harddisk differ when written with AHCI
compared to a disk which is written with IDE?

If NO _AND_ only the kernel sets the AHCI- odr IDE-protocol, then
the harddisk should be readable in either case.

If the BIOS _and_ the kernel settings are defining, how to talk
to the disk, then it may happen, that there is only the "sound of silence"
between kernel and hardware if before the BIOS set up the SATA-chips
differently to what the kernel wants to talk.

But again, these are only thougts drifting in the dark.

I tried to shed some more light (for getting greater shadows )
by posting my question here... 8)

May be I should do some more stupid things???

Thanks again for your help and your words, Mark!
Have a nice weekend!
Best regards,
mcc
 
Old 01-21-2011, 06:48 PM
 
Default AHCI/IDE-question

Mark Knecht <markknecht@gmail.com> [11-01-21 20:36]:
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
> <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >>
> >> * *I'm happy to be corrected (by Volker I'm sure) but that's my guess
> >> as to what you're seeing.
> >
> > you are confusing bios calls and bios programming chips as.... also - is there
> > any good reason to use IDE mode? Any? At all?
>
> I don't believe I'm 'confusing bios calls with bios programming'. The
> BIOS can do whatever it wants to in programming the chips as long as
> grub can still find the kernel. After grub finds the kernel the kernel
> is free to override whatever chip programming the BIOS has done and
> reprogram the chips as it sees best.
>
> I think the issue meino possibly has is that he likely didn't include
> an Int13 type driver in the kernel or most likely his system would
> have booted like it did in the _very_ old days.
>
> I agree that there isn't any good reason I know of to use IDE mode
> unless the other modes the BIOS provides don't work.
>
> I cannot get into my Asus BIOS at the moment, but as I remember it
> Asus gave me something like
>
> IDE
> AHCI
> AHCI + compatibility
>
> IIRC I had to use the last one to get mine to boot but I may be wrong
> about that. I only mention this as meino is also using Asus so he
> might look for similar options.
>
> - Mark
>

Hi Mark,

...I got some timing problems here, it seems: The answers are comeing
faster than the related questions are posted.
Are we disturbing the Einstein/Rosen-continuum here and should better stop
mailing with lightspeed???



My ASUS board offers:
RAID
IDE
AHCI

The help to both kernel options mentioned above is saying (beside
other things): "If unsure, say N".

That would lead to a unbootable system (at least with my setup...).

One point for clarification:
Grub has no problem with either settings in the BIOS. Even the kernel
boots til the point when it wants to access the root partition.

I will try to reboot the system with kernel using AHCI _and_ the BIOS
set to AHCI...I will post the result of the stupid experiment in a
moment...wait...
 

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