FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Gentoo > Gentoo User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-30-2010, 07:23 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Grant Edwards
><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
>>> something?
>>
>> Nope. Not that I know of. I presume I'd have to do something I'd
>> likely remember
>
> Yes, you would definitely remember if you did it...
>
> Anyway, I think perhaps we must be running considerably different
> resolutions and text sizes...

I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm apparently seeing a significantly
larger "fixed" font than you are (as a percentage of screen width).
For whatever reason, a lot of sites like to use a low-contrast color
scheme for things like listing blocks. For example, Gentoos uses
medium-blue on light-blue (violet?). I find that hard to read when
the font gets too small.

> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.

I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
block.

The basic problem is that the width of the normal text paragraphs is
dependent on the width of the code blocks. IMO, that's not right[1],
but whether or not it can be fixed depends somewhat on the document
formatting system in use.

[1] As somebody who's been using TeX/LaTeX for 25 years, I'm probably
inordinately picky about typesetting issues.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! I have a TINY BOWL in
at my HEAD
gmail.com
 
Old 09-30-2010, 07:42 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>>>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>>>>
>>>>
>>> This one has a horizontal scrollbar but only adjust about a half inch or
>>> so. It almost fits.
>>>
>> Are the text paragraphs re-wrapped as you narrow the window?
>
> That one has a scrollbar no matter what. It appears that section "Code
> Listing 2.4: Using SH4 cross-compiler" is making it really long. It has
> a line in that box that is pretty long. It's the longest line I saw in
> the whole page.
>
> So, it appears as someone else posted that the pretty blue boxes set
> the minimum width.

I think that's definitely the issue.

> Whatever is the longest line sets the width. How would one go about
> changing that I wonder?

I think it can probably be set in the CSS stylesheet, but I'm pretty
fuzzy when it comes to CSS details.

I do know that the web pages I generate with asciidoc don't have this
problem. In general, the width of the text paragraphs is determined
by the browser width, but listing blocks don't get wrapped and you may
have to scroll over to see the ends of the really wide ones. I
usually set a max text width as well, so that if you do widen your
browser window to see the really wide listing blocks, you still end up
with text columns that max out at a reasonable width. Setting a
max-width for text is probably more a matter of taste/style, but I
don't think that anybody can argue that having the minium text width
determined by the maximum listing width is right.

> I know when someone posts a long command on this mailing list, it
> makes it hard to understand when Seamonkey shops it up into two
> lines.

We definitely don't want to wrap things like command lines, config
file listings, code listings, and program input/output. That's why
you (directly or indirectly) assign them a different CSS style or
object type -- so that you can do things like wrap normal text and not
listings or examples.

> Most people are good enough to post that the command has to be all on
> one line tho. It appears that a email problem is also a website
> problem too. When to wrap a line and when not to?

I don't think listings/code/shell-examples should not be wrapped, and
AFAIK, nobody's arguing that they should be.

However, I do assert that normal text paragraphs should be wrapped to
fit within the browser window.

In text-only e-mail messages, there's no way to tell the difference
between the two.

Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
fix...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Can you MAIL a BEAN
at CAKE?
gmail.com
 
Old 09-30-2010, 07:50 PM
Dale
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

Grant Edwards wrote:

<< SNIP >>
Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
fix...




Maybe what needs to happen is this. Find the person that is "in the
know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the
pages with. That way, they will certainly be able to see the issue and
maybe know how to make it work better. They can then also test it on
their normal monitor and if it is readable on both, it should work for
anyone pretty much regardless of what monitor size and resolution they use.


Not sure that is doable either tho.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 09-30-2010, 08:05 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> << SNIP >>
>> Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
>> does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
>> Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
>> can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
>> fix...
>>
>>
>
> Maybe what needs to happen is this. Find the person that is "in the
> know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the
> pages with.

and some OLD eyes with which to look at the monitor -- that way they
set their browser sup with larger fonts for the low-contrast
blue-on-blue blocks.

What really needs to happen is for me to file a bug report against the
documentation (assuming this hasn't already been filed as a bug and
been resolved as "won't fix"). I'll put that on my list of things to
do...

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! YOU PICKED KARL
at MALDEN'S NOSE!!
gmail.com
 
Old 09-30-2010, 08:34 PM
Jörg Schaible
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

Hi Edward,

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2010-09-30, Darren Kirby <bulliver@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Grant Edwards
>><grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Do you have some custom css stylesheets that override the default or
>>>> something?
>>>
>>> Nope. Not that I know of. I presume I'd have to do something I'd
>>> likely remember
>>
>> Yes, you would definitely remember if you did it...
>>
>> Anyway, I think perhaps we must be running considerably different
>> resolutions and text sizes...
>
> I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm apparently seeing a significantly
> larger "fixed" font than you are (as a percentage of screen width).
> For whatever reason, a lot of sites like to use a low-contrast color
> scheme for things like listing blocks. For example, Gentoos uses
> medium-blue on light-blue (violet?). I find that hard to read when
> the font gets too small.
>
>> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
>> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
>> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
>> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
>> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.
>
> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
> block.

Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype", because it
seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

> The basic problem is that the width of the normal text paragraphs is
> dependent on the width of the code blocks. IMO, that's not right[1],
> but whether or not it can be fixed depends somewhat on the document
> formatting system in use.
>
> [1] As somebody who's been using TeX/LaTeX for 25 years, I'm probably
> inordinately picky about typesetting issues.

- Jörg
 
Old 09-30-2010, 08:41 PM
Dale
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2010-09-30, Dale<rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:


Grant Edwards wrote:


<< SNIP>>
Whatever's generating the HTML/CSS for the Gentoo manual web pages
does know the difference, and should be able to do The Right
Thing(tm). The manual HTML is definitely machine-generated, but I
can't tell you by what at this point, so I can't offer a specific
fix...




Maybe what needs to happen is this. Find the person that is "in the
know" on the Gentoo docs, give them a OLD 12" monitor to help do the
pages with.


and some OLD eyes with which to look at the monitor -- that way they
set their browser sup with larger fonts for the low-contrast
blue-on-blue blocks.

What really needs to happen is for me to file a bug report against the
documentation (assuming this hasn't already been filed as a bug and
been resolved as "won't fix"). I'll put that on my list of things to
do...




Your eyes as bad as mine? My glasses are 3 years old and I really need
some new ones.


One good thing tho, at least they didn't decide to put dark blue text
with a black background. There are sites that do that. I guess they
want the old farts like us to go away. lol It generally works too.


I wouldn't expect a quick fix but maybe it will be something that they
can work on over time. I don't think there is a lot of people that do
doc work. It does need to be brought to their attention tho. If they
don't know it is a problem for some of us, they certainly won't work on
it then.


Post a link when you file it.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 09-30-2010, 08:55 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, J??rg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de> wrote:

>> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
>> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
>> block.
>
> Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype",
> because it seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

That's still just a kludge/bandage for a broken document.

I've got no complaint about the width of the listing blocks.

The problem is that the wrap width of normal text paragraphs shouldn't
be determined by the width of listing blocks. It should be determined
by the width of the browser window.

I'd also set a maximum text width to keep paragraphs somewhat readable
when you widen the window to see all of a really wide listing block.
But, I'm willing to admit that's a more of a style/preference
question.

Here's an example of how to do it right (both decoupled text/listing
widths and a max-width for text):

http://www.panix.com/~grante/wrapdemo.html

I've filed a bug, so anybody with an opinion can weigh in there as
well.

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Everybody gets free
at BORSCHT!
gmail.com
 
Old 09-30-2010, 09:13 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, J??rg Schaible <joerg.schaible@gmx.de> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:

>>> playing around here a bit more and you are correct, the text will
>>> only reformat to the width of the longest code block before the
>>> horizontal scroll appears. On the "Creating a Cross-Compiler" page
>>> you linked to the longest code block is still only half the width of
>>> my screen, so it's not really a problem on my system.
>>
>> I could reduce the minimum size of my "fixed" font, but that only
>> helps until the next web page comes along with an even wider code
>> block.
>
> Try a different fixed font. At the end I've chosen "Monotype", because it
> seems to have the narrowest well-readable letters.

I could do that, but IMO that's just a kludge for a broken document.

And it only works until the next web page comes along with even wider
listing blocks.

The real problem is that text and listing widths are linked. They
shouldn't be.

I've filed a bug report:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339290

So feel free to weigh in there.

That bug report contains a link to a page that shows how I think it
should work:

http://www.panix.com/~grante/wrapdemo.html

The text paragraphs wrap to fit within the browser width regardless of
the width of the listing blocks.

I've also set a max width on the paragraphs so that they remain
readable even when you widen the browser window to see more of the
wide listing blocks. [I admit the max-width bit is more of a
style-preferance thing.]

--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! My mind is making
at ashtrays in Dayton ...
gmail.com
 
Old 09-30-2010, 10:53 PM
Jacob Todd
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

They're readable even on my droid x.


On Sep 30, 2010 1:15 PM, "Grant Edwards" <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:> I've noticed recently that the Gentoo handbook web pages are

> ridiculously wide. (It seems to me that they didn't used to be, but I
> wouldn't swear to that).
>
> For example, look at this page:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2

>
> The normal text paragraphs have lines that average over 160 characters
> per line. The generally accepted guideline for line length in order to
> maintain good readability is 40-80. The above page's lines are 2-4

> times as long as recommended for good readability, and they are in
> fact so long that I can't make my browser wide enough to see an entire
> line.
>
> Line lengths that long make the pages hard to read even if you _can_

> make your browser wide enough to show an entire line.
>
> The regular handbook is a little better:
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1

>
> That has lines that average about 140 characters. That's still much
> longer than what I'd consider good practice.
>
> Do the extremely long lines in the handbook web pages bother anybody

> else?
>
> I can understand that things like example code blocks or sample
> command input/output blocks might need to be wide enough to require
> horizontal scrolling of a browser window, but normal text paragraphs

> with 160 characters per line?
>
> --
> Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Is this going to
> at involve RAW human ecstasy?

> gmail.com
>
>
 
Old 09-30-2010, 11:15 PM
Grant Edwards
 
Default ridiculously wide handbook pages

On 2010-09-30, Jacob Todd <jaketodd422@gmail.com> wrote:

>> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=1&chap=2
>> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1

> They're readable even on my droid x.

Really?

You don't have to scroll back-and-forth to see an entire line of text?

--
Grant
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:48 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org