FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Gentoo > Gentoo User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-06-2010, 09:45 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On Monday 06 September 2010, Al wrote:
> Hi,
>
> being comparingly new to Gentoo I still wounder why the classical
> heart of every open source community is missing, a public news server.
> At least a news server is not offically announced on
> http://www.gentoo.org/ like forums, IRC and mailinglists. (I can read
> some, not all of the lists via infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de.)
>
> Well, there are mailinglists. But mailinglists send each message to
> everybody producing a lot of traffic overhead. As as result people are
> socially driven to reduce the amount of messages. The lists are dead
> early while IRC still is active.
>
> By this a lot of interesting solutions are lost to effective web
> search. The buzz in IRC doesn't result in a web searchable
> documentation. It is rubbish the moment after it was written. Also it
> is not everybodies taste only to send small messages and to paste
> elsewhere when the stuff exceeds 2 lines of code.
>
> Then there are some Gentoo web forums out there. Now that is really
> slow, moving tons of HTML for every single posting. Valuable
> information is scattered all around. Do we think intelligent people to
> limited to install a Thunderbird to read news, so that people are to
> driven to web forums like housewifes, that only know the web as
> webpages?
>
> When comparing Gentoo with other communities it has very good
> documentation but communication could be better. I am missing the
> heart of it.
>
> Al

wtf are you talking about?

and who is using news anyway?
 
Old 09-06-2010, 10:20 PM
Dale
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

wtf are you talking about?

and who is using news anyway?





I was trying to figure this out myself. I thought maybe I was missing
something in the message. Maybe not.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 09-06-2010, 10:42 PM
Jake Moe
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On 07/09/10 06:19, Al wrote:
> Hi,
>
> being comparingly new to Gentoo I still wounder why the classical
> heart of every open source community is missing, a public news server.
> At least a news server is not offically announced on
> http://www.gentoo.org/ like forums, IRC and mailinglists. (I can read
> some, not all of the lists via infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de.)
>
> Well, there are mailinglists. But mailinglists send each message to
> everybody producing a lot of traffic overhead. As as result people are
> socially driven to reduce the amount of messages. The lists are dead
> early while IRC still is active.
>
> By this a lot of interesting solutions are lost to effective web
> search. The buzz in IRC doesn't result in a web searchable
> documentation. It is rubbish the moment after it was written. Also it
> is not everybodies taste only to send small messages and to paste
> elsewhere when the stuff exceeds 2 lines of code.
>
> Then there are some Gentoo web forums out there. Now that is really
> slow, moving tons of HTML for every single posting. Valuable
> information is scattered all around. Do we think intelligent people to
> limited to install a Thunderbird to read news, so that people are to
> driven to web forums like housewifes, that only know the web as
> webpages?
>
> When comparing Gentoo with other communities it has very good
> documentation but communication could be better. I am missing the
> heart of it.
>
> Al
Why say that "lists are dead early"? This list I find takes a certain
amount of maintenance to keep up-to-date, otherwise it grows to an
unmanageable number of e-mails in my Inbox. If anything, it's "too
alive" with too much communication, it's nowhere near dead. That's not
to say I'm complaining about the amount of mail this list generates; I'm
just saying that it's certainly not dead.

Everyone's got their preference; some like mailing lists and come here.
Others like forums and go there. Still others prefer IRC.

Also, a quick Google search of "gentoo newsgroup" showed me
alt.os.linux.gentoo, and that it's been posted to as recently as less
than a month ago. What's wrong with that newsgroup?

And I, for one at least, use Thunderbird to read my e-mail; the
interface is pretty much the same for mail and news. A little
configuration change and I'd be using news. But I like the mailing
list, not newsgroups. (shrug)

Jake Moe
 
Old 09-06-2010, 11:25 PM
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:

> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > wtf are you talking about?
> >
> > and who is using news anyway?
> >
> >
> >
>
> I was trying to figure this out myself. I thought maybe I was missing
> something in the message. Maybe not.
Isn't the list aggregated into that news site gmain or whatever its
called?
Then he can have it as a newsgroup.

--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?

John Covici
covici@ccs.covici.com
 
Old 09-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Etaoin Shrdlu
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 08:42:40 +1000 Jake Moe <jakesaddress@gmail.com> wrote:

> Everyone's got their preference; some like mailing lists and come here.
> Others like forums and go there. Still others prefer IRC.
>
> Also, a quick Google search of "gentoo newsgroup" showed me
> alt.os.linux.gentoo, and that it's been posted to as recently as less
> than a month ago. What's wrong with that newsgroup?
>
> And I, for one at least, use Thunderbird to read my e-mail; the
> interface is pretty much the same for mail and news. A little
> configuration change and I'd be using news. But I like the mailing
> list, not newsgroups. (shrug)

And for those who like newsgroups, gmane is available.
 
Old 09-06-2010, 11:55 PM
Al
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

Jake

it is a pity when well working systems are replaced by systems that
are less good. But the high cultures of the ancient world also have
been replaced by dark medieval times and italien restaurants are
beeing replaced by burger burners (here in Europe).

> Why say that "lists are dead early"? *This list I find takes a certain
> amount of maintenance to keep up-to-date, otherwise it grows to an
> unmanageable number of e-mails in my Inbox. *If anything, it's "too

Well that is the first advantage of a newsreader. It does not spam
your mailbox. You select yourself what you want to read by the header.
The other contents are never delivered to you, eat up neither traffic
nor space. People don't really need to complain of to much traffic.

> alive" with too much communication, it's nowhere near dead. *That's not
> to say I'm complaining about the amount of mail this list generates; I'm
> just saying that it's certainly not dead.

Here people in fact complain about to much mail. Usually you should be
able to anser frankly: "Use a news reader". In a mailinglist you
can't. Instead here people get made a bad conscience when they are
posting or discussing. That I consider rather contraproductive. That
drives people to IRC with the result of a big loss of living
documentation and a split within the community.

>
> Everyone's got their preference; some like mailing lists and come here.
> Others like forums and go there. *Still others prefer IRC.
>
> Also, a quick Google search of "gentoo newsgroup" showed me
> alt.os.linux.gentoo, and that it's been posted to as recently as less
> than a month ago. *What's wrong with that newsgroup?

1.) It's not even officially anounced on gentoo.org
2.) It is not on a public available gentoo server. I first would need
access to alt.os.linux.gentoo.
3.) It is not synchronized with the mailing list.
4.) The leaders of the community don't support it.

How should it work then? Just because it has gentoo in it's name?

>
> And I, for one at least, use Thunderbird to read my e-mail; the
> interface is pretty much the same for mail and news. *A little
> configuration change and I'd be using news. *But I like the mailing
> list, not newsgroups. *(shrug)

Right for a thunderbird user there is no real difference at all. He is
already "advanced". Probably one should say less retarded.

Saying this I currently write from google web on windows. But the
reason is, that I try to port Gentoo to Cygwin.

I still think a newsserver should be the backbone of a good community.
Mail and forums should be additional doors for those which are brought
up in the world of windows and google. Best they are fully
synchronized and it is the same database.

Al
 
Old 09-07-2010, 12:14 AM
Al
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

>>
>> I was trying to figure this out myself. *I thought maybe I was missing
>> something in the message. *Maybe not.
> Isn't the list aggregated into that news site gmain or whatever its
> called?
> Then he can have it as a newsgroup.
>

It's not the question how I read it, but a question how a majority of
users can read and write to it. That influences the culture and
athmosphere of communication. Also I think Volkers remark was very
ironical else he should best go back to his dishes.

Al
 
Old 09-07-2010, 12:36 AM
David W Noon
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 02:10:02 +0200, covici@ccs.covici.com wrote about
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoos community communication rant:

>Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> > wtf are you talking about?
>> >
>> > and who is using news anyway?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I was trying to figure this out myself. I thought maybe I was
>> missing something in the message. Maybe not.
>Isn't the list aggregated into that news site gmain or whatever its
>called?
>Then he can have it as a newsgroup.

I read this list through Usenet as a newsgroup. However, I post my
follow-ups, such as this one, using email to the mailing list.

It's no big deal.

Moreover, keeping this as a subscription-only mailing list keeps the
spam count down.
--
Regards,

Dave [RLU #314465]
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
dwnoon@ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
 
Old 09-07-2010, 01:51 AM
Jake Moe
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On 07/09/10 09:55, Al wrote:
> Jake
>
> it is a pity when well working systems are replaced by systems that
> are less good. But the high cultures of the ancient world also have
> been replaced by dark medieval times and italien restaurants are
> beeing replaced by burger burners (here in Europe)
>> Why say that "lists are dead early"? This list I find takes a certain
>> amount of maintenance to keep up-to-date, otherwise it grows to an
>> unmanageable number of e-mails in my Inbox. If anything, it's "too
> Well that is the first advantage of a newsreader. It does not spam
> your mailbox. You select yourself what you want to read by the header.
> The other contents are never delivered to you, eat up neither traffic
> nor space. People don't really need to complain of to much traffic.

Well, whether the headers are from an IMAP server or an NNTP server,
they're still headers. It's my understanding that Thunderbird only
downloads everything in my mail folder because I tell it to. I could
just as easily not tell it to, and only double-click on the messages
that are interesting to me, and simply delete the rest. Since I'm
trying to learn as much as possible about Gentoo (I've only been using
Linux about a year or two), I choose to download it all, cause I'm going
to read it all; I learn a lot from things that I don't even intend to use.
>> alive" with too much communication, it's nowhere near dead. That's not
>> to say I'm complaining about the amount of mail this list generates; I'm
>> just saying that it's certainly not dead.
> Here people in fact complain about to much mail. Usually you should be
> able to anser frankly: "Use a news reader". In a mailinglist you
> can't. Instead here people get made a bad conscience when they are
> posting or discussing. That I consider rather contraproductive. That
> drives people to IRC with the result of a big loss of living
> documentation and a split within the community.
I'm not sure what you mean by "get made a bad conscience". Perhaps, you
mean are made to feel bad about posting? The only times I've seen that
happen are when either a) the OP could have answered him/herself by a
fairly simple Google search (and the reply that says this usually gives
a hint as to what they should be searching for, in case they didn't
think of it themselves, and they are usually followed up by someone
going "Uh duh, why didn't I think of that" or "Thanks, I hadn't thought
of that"), or b) the subject is something so far off the topic of Gentoo
that people ask they don't post about it here.

I probably mis-spoke by saying it's "too alive". I certainly don't want
to give the impression that I'm burdened by the amount of mail
generated; if so, I'd simply unsubscribe.
>> Everyone's got their preference; some like mailing lists and come here.
>> Others like forums and go there. Still others prefer IRC.
>>
>> Also, a quick Google search of "gentoo newsgroup" showed me
>> alt.os.linux.gentoo, and that it's been posted to as recently as less
>> than a month ago. What's wrong with that newsgroup?
> 1.) It's not even officially anounced on gentoo.org
> 2.) It is not on a public available gentoo server. I first would need
> access to alt.os.linux.gentoo.
> 3.) It is not synchronized with the mailing list.
> 4.) The leaders of the community don't support it.
>
> How should it work then? Just because it has gentoo in it's name?
1.) That's a separate discussion, one you'd have to take up with the
Gentoo devs. You can ask if there's interested here, but I would think
that's about as far as this mailing list could go with it.
2.) It's been a while since I used newsgroups, but I thought you pointed
your newsreader to a server that had the newsgroup in question, and then
read it from there? If your news server doesn't have that newsgroup,
you should ask for it? Other than that, I can't help; as I said, it's
been a long time since I used it.
>> And I, for one at least, use Thunderbird to read my e-mail; the
>> interface is pretty much the same for mail and news. A little
>> configuration change and I'd be using news. But I like the mailing
>> list, not newsgroups. (shrug)
> Right for a thunderbird user there is no real difference at all. He is
> already "advanced". Probably one should say less retarded.
I didn't say I was "advanced". But are you saying that using a
newsgroup is really that different that using e-mail? You double-click
on messages to open them, you click a button to reply to them, you type
text in to make the body of the reply, and then you click send. The
main difference I see has to do with public vs. private access. Even
news gets replicated around to every server that chooses to offer that
group. So either it goes to a bunch of mailboxes, or a bunch of news
servers.
> Saying this I currently write from google web on windows. But the
> reason is, that I try to port Gentoo to Cygwin.
>
> I still think a newsserver should be the backbone of a good community.
> Mail and forums should be additional doors for those which are brought
> up in the world of windows and google. Best they are fully
> synchronized and it is the same database.
Well, I haven't used it, but others are telling you you can use gmane if
you want to use it as a newsgroup. I can't add anything more to that.
> Al
Jake Moe
 
Old 09-07-2010, 04:09 AM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Gentoos community communication rant

On Tuesday 07 September 2010, Al wrote:
> >> I was trying to figure this out myself. I thought maybe I was missing
> >> something in the message. Maybe not.
> >
> > Isn't the list aggregated into that news site gmain or whatever its
> > called?
> > Then he can have it as a newsgroup.
>
> It's not the question how I read it, but a question how a majority of
> users can read and write to it. That influences the culture and
> athmosphere of communication. Also I think Volkers remark was very
> ironical else he should best go back to his dishes.
>
> Al

up until today nobody ever mentioned news. Everybody was happy using mailing
lists, forums or irc.

Or to phrase it differently: news is dying out quickly and gentoo never missed
anything not having a newsgroups.
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 11:42 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org