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Old 03-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Stroller
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On 3 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Stroller wrote:

...
I have started following the Gentoo Linux AMD64 Handbook, because
the Quick Install Guide is described as "x86". Having untarred the
stage I am surprised to find a lib32 directory. I thought
compatibility with 32-bit binaries was optional. Or am I
misunderstanding? This is going to be a headless server & I can't
think that it'll need any binary packages - possibly the management
utility for the RAID controller will be distributed as a binary, I'm
not sure yet (the hardware RAID key was missing when I got this
machine ☹)



Further to Alan's reply, I've proceeded a little further.

I'm onto section 2.3: Changing profiles, where it says:
"If you want to have a pure 64-bit environment, with no 32-bit
applications or libraries, you should use a non-multilib profile."


See my comments in the quoted above. It shouldn't be too expensive to
enable the RAID in this machine (which is on the mainboard, but
requires a little hardware PCB "key" to be fitted). That's a Dell
PERC4, which AFAICT is a rebadged LSI megaraid.


This post [1] http://tinyurl.com/3dzcl9 referrs to the management
utility thus: "MegaCLI comes as a RPM containing only a single
statically linked 32-bit Linux binary", however `eix mega` suggests
there may be alternatives, such as `megactl` [2]


My immediate thought when reading the handbook was that it's "best"
and "cleanest" and "more right" to only have 64-bit libraries on a 64-
bit system, but this need for the RAID management utility is making me
wonder if that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.


Thoughts?

Stroller.




[1] http://www.kaltenbrunner.cc/blog/index.php?/archives/4-LSIlogic-MegaRAID-SAS-and-the-self-explaining-CLI.html

[2] http://sourceforge.net/projects/megactl/
 
Old 03-03-2010, 07:04 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Wednesday 03 March 2010 19:04:45 Stroller wrote:
> On 3 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Stroller wrote:
> > ...
> > I have started following the Gentoo Linux AMD64 Handbook, because
> > the Quick Install Guide is described as "x86". Having untarred the
> > stage I am surprised to find a lib32 directory. I thought
> > compatibility with 32-bit binaries was optional. Or am I
> > misunderstanding? This is going to be a headless server & I can't
> > think that it'll need any binary packages - possibly the management
> > utility for the RAID controller will be distributed as a binary, I'm
> > not sure yet (the hardware RAID key was missing when I got this
> > machine ☹)
>
> Further to Alan's reply, I've proceeded a little further.
>
> I'm onto section 2.3: Changing profiles, where it says:
> "If you want to have a pure 64-bit environment, with no 32-bit
> applications or libraries, you should use a non-multilib profile."
>
> See my comments in the quoted above. It shouldn't be too expensive to
> enable the RAID in this machine (which is on the mainboard, but
> requires a little hardware PCB "key" to be fitted). That's a Dell
> PERC4, which AFAICT is a rebadged LSI megaraid.
>
> This post [1] http://tinyurl.com/3dzcl9 referrs to the management
> utility thus: "MegaCLI comes as a RPM containing only a single
> statically linked 32-bit Linux binary", however `eix mega` suggests
> there may be alternatives, such as `megactl` [2]
>
> My immediate thought when reading the handbook was that it's "best"
> and "cleanest" and "more right" to only have 64-bit libraries on a 64-
> bit system, but this need for the RAID management utility is making me
> wonder if that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

It has a single statically linked binary. Which probably means it already
contains everything you will need and will run just fine. No need to build
everything multilib; if you do need a 32bit lib, just install the appropriate
emul-x86-linux package.

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 03-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Mick
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Wednesday 03 March 2010 20:04:17 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 March 2010 19:04:45 Stroller wrote:
> > On 3 Mar 2010, at 15:29, Stroller wrote:
> > > ...
> > > I have started following the Gentoo Linux AMD64 Handbook, because
> > > the Quick Install Guide is described as "x86". Having untarred the
> > > stage I am surprised to find a lib32 directory. I thought
> > > compatibility with 32-bit binaries was optional. Or am I
> > > misunderstanding? This is going to be a headless server & I can't
> > > think that it'll need any binary packages - possibly the management
> > > utility for the RAID controller will be distributed as a binary, I'm
> > > not sure yet (the hardware RAID key was missing when I got this
> > > machine ☹)
> >
> > Further to Alan's reply, I've proceeded a little further.
> >
> > I'm onto section 2.3: Changing profiles, where it says:
> > "If you want to have a pure 64-bit environment, with no 32-bit
> > applications or libraries, you should use a non-multilib profile."
> >
> > See my comments in the quoted above. It shouldn't be too expensive to
> > enable the RAID in this machine (which is on the mainboard, but
> > requires a little hardware PCB "key" to be fitted). That's a Dell
> > PERC4, which AFAICT is a rebadged LSI megaraid.
> >
> > This post [1] http://tinyurl.com/3dzcl9 referrs to the management
> > utility thus: "MegaCLI comes as a RPM containing only a single
> > statically linked 32-bit Linux binary", however `eix mega` suggests
> > there may be alternatives, such as `megactl` [2]
> >
> > My immediate thought when reading the handbook was that it's "best"
> > and "cleanest" and "more right" to only have 64-bit libraries on a 64-
> > bit system, but this need for the RAID management utility is making me
> > wonder if that would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
>
> It has a single statically linked binary. Which probably means it already
> contains everything you will need and will run just fine. No need to build
> everything multilib; if you do need a 32bit lib, just install the
> appropriate emul-x86-linux package.

So how 'safe' is it these days to build a 64bit only system? Would you end up
having to rebuild with multilibs because many apps which won't work on a pure
64bit build?
--
Regards,
Mick
 
Old 03-03-2010, 09:56 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Mittwoch 03 Mrz 2010, Mick wrote:

> So how 'safe' is it these days to build a 64bit only system? Would you end
> up having to rebuild with multilibs because many apps which won't work on
> a pure 64bit build?


no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it will
pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 05:44 AM
Graham Murray
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:

> no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
> profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it will
> pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.

What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe then
Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any problems, and
expect to start building a third one today.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 06:19 AM
Nikos Chantziaras
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On 03/04/2010 08:44 AM, Graham Murray wrote:

Volker Armin Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:


no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it will
pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.


What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe then
Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any problems, and
expect to start building a third one today.


You didn't understand the question Volker was replying to. The question
was not about "safe" as in "security", but rather "safe" as in "I can
rest assured that a no-multilib system can run every software I could
install", which is clearly not the case since some applications need
32-bit support.
 
Old 03-04-2010, 06:23 AM
Zeerak Mustafa Waseem
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 06:44:27AM +0000, Graham Murray wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:
>
> > no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
> > profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it will
> > pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.
>
> What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe then
> Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
> systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any problems, and
> expect to start building a third one today.
>

I completely misread that, I read it as "it is safe to have a 64bit only system".

I ran a no-multilib profile for a couple of weeks which ran fine. This isn't a long period of time, I know. But I had absolutely no issues in that period. The only reason I switched back to a multilib profile was because a math program for school couldn't connect to it's core functions on a pure 64-bit environment.
Furthermore, I have multilib flag disabled as standard, but there are some things (gcc, glibc mainly) where I have set the multilib flag. And I'm not having any sort of problem with it.

--
Zeerak Waseem
 
Old 03-04-2010, 06:30 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Thursday 04 March 2010 08:44:27 Graham Murray wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:
> > no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
> > profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it
> > will pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.
>
> What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe then
> Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
> systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any problems, and
> expect to start building a third one today.


It's not unsafe in that the machine cannot work, it's unsafe in that for a
normal desktop user's range of apps, some thing might be impossible to get
going.

If you have a no-multilib desktop profile, and you need to install some thrid
party app like VPN software that is 32 bit, you are stuck needing a reinstall
(as that profile switch on a live machine is not easy nor advised).

Just be safe as use the profile that will let you use 32 bit libs if and when
you need them.


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 03-04-2010, 07:16 AM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On Donnerstag 04 Mrz 2010, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
> On 03/04/2010 08:44 AM, Graham Murray wrote:
> > Volker Armin Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:
> >> no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the multilib
> >> profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul libs, it
> >> will pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.
> >
> > What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe then
> > Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
> > systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any problems, and
> > expect to start building a third one today.
>
> You didn't understand the question Volker was replying to. The question
> was not about "safe" as in "security", but rather "safe" as in "I can
> rest assured that a no-multilib system can run every software I could
> install", which is clearly not the case since some applications need
> 32-bit support.

exactly. As Alan explained, there might be a point where you need to run a
32bit app.
Maybe some legacy game (Civilization Call To Power comes to mind) or some new-
but-the-vendor-sucks software.
Without multilib you can either choose not to use that software (which isn't a
choice if you really need it) or you can reinstall everything.

And all that for a couple of megabytes on a tens, maybe hundreds of gigabytes
harddisk.

du -h /usr/lib32
362M /usr/lib32

but:
rootfs 57G 23G 34G 41% /

yeah, shocking. Almost a 114th of the harddisk used for multilib stuff
 
Old 03-04-2010, 07:56 AM
Stroller
 
Default Advice for 64-bit n00b?

On 4 Mar 2010, at 07:19, Nikos Chantziaras wrote:


On 03/04/2010 08:44 AM, Graham Murray wrote:

Volker Armin Hemmann<volkerarmin@googlemail.com> writes:

no, it is not safe to have a 64bit only system. Just choose the
multilib
profile and start installing. If something needs the 32bit emul
libs, it will

pull the stuff in. There is nothing you need to care about.


What is unsafe about a 64bit only system? Surely if it were unsafe
then

Gentoo would not offer no-multilib profiles? I have recently built 2
systems using a no-multilib profile and have not found any
problems, and

expect to start building a third one today.


You didn't understand the question Volker was replying to. The
question was not about "safe" as in "security", but rather "safe" as
in "I can rest assured that a no-multilib system can run every
software I could install", which is clearly not the case since some
applications need 32-bit support.


I could imagine that web-browsers might need 32-bit support in order
to play Flash, but can you suggest other applications which might?


This is a headless server, and I was kinda reassured by Alan's
response (Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:04:17 +0200) [1] that seemed to assure me
that a statically linked 32-bit binary would work fine if I selected
the "no-multilib" profile.


I'd be really quite happy if I knew that this decision was revocable -
if I could choose "no-multilib" now and change my mind using eselect
later. Presumably I can choose to keep these 32-bit libs for the
moment & blow them away if I find I don't need them - this lib32 is,
after all, in the stage3-amd64-*tar.bz2, so what is the point in
offering me "no-multilib" if I can't do that?


Stroller.



[1] http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/msg_64a30b77742cf5846705952e6129367d.xml
http://tinyurl.com/ykvx5co
 

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