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-   -   Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail? (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-user/324269-has-semantic-desktop-really-become-compulsatory-kmail.html)

Volker Armin Hemmann 02-11-2010 10:03 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Stroller wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2010, at 00:01, Jörg Schaible wrote:
> >> ...
> >> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> >>
> >> start here:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> >>
> >> and then proceed with the links.
> >>
> >> google-desktop is something completley different (and something
> >> that can
> >> be replaced with find, locate and grep).
> >
> > Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took
> > so many
> > resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else.
> > So, you
> > mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with
> > 4.3.x? LOL,
> > although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather
> > have a
> > usable machine ...
>
> I don't use KDE, but when I freshly install Mac OS (or migrate to a
> new hard-drive) the Spotlight indexing hammers the drive for several
> hours. It is not reasonable to compare performance during this initial
> indexing period.
>
> There is no way the likes of `find`, `grep` and `locate` - useful as
> they are - can operate as efficiently as this kind of indexing (and
> Spotlight is pretty damn poor - your KDE implementation is surely
> loads better). I love `find`, `grep` and `locate` - they're fantastic,
> but my typical usage of them is to perform strict batch operations. If
> I just want to open a document then why would I wait for `find`,
> `grep` - or go hunting around manually in sub-directories of sub-
> directories - when I can just type a keyword into the search box and
> find it immediately?
>
don't forget that updatedb is hammering your harddisk regularly too - and it
doesn't just index new files. Nope, it goes over the whole disk.

Volker Armin Hemmann 02-11-2010 10:05 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
> >> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
> >> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
> >> relationship to an email?).
> >
> > because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree
> > plus symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of
> > the stuff 'semantic desktop' can do for you..
>
> Haven't had a problem organizing my data in 25 years and currently run a 3
> system cluster with ~8TB of data. The only "benefit" that the semantic
> desktop seems to deliver is to waste resources.
>
> >> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
> >> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
> >> attack that get's access to the RDFs,
> >
> > those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you
> > are screwed anyway.
> >
> >> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
> >> additional files to target).
> >
> > oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is
> > scary.
>
> But tagging files (say stock spreedsheets, bank records, financial
> bookmarks, tax records) with tags (say 'bank, money, finance') all in one
> place would simplify a targeted attack.

and the filenames and the places where you keep them won't tell him the same?
You just claimed you organize things just fine. When you organize things, it
can be used against you.

>
> >> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
> >> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be
> >> totally disabled/uninstalled.
> >
> > and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing
> > else. Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.
>
> So just another database server wasting resources.

if it is running. You are free to not start it at all.

> Not too bad as long as
> nepomuk and strigi are disabled. Now to find the network ports soprano
> uses to make sure they are blocked from leaving the machine... Yes, I
> know, one of the really scary goals of the semantic-desktop is to share
> RDFs, definitely don't want that.

good thing you have to enable that explicitly...

>
> >> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> >> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> >
> > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
> >
> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>
> This technology does not have a good track record (invasive cpu, memory,
> disk usage) for very dubious benefits. I have not found any cost vs.
> benefits vs. risks articles. Just a bunch of "we think this will be great
> if you just use it" type articles that can't even explain how it would be
> great.

zero cpu, almost zero memory and mayby 0.1% harddisk. Yeah, that is scary.

"Walter Dnes" 02-11-2010 10:50 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
>
> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.

There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE. Actually I prefer the
ICEWM window manager. I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007. Let's just say that
GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me. On my current desktop,
ICEWM flies. But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
usable.

> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.

Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if
Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

"Walter Dnes" 02-11-2010 11:00 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +0000, Stroller wrote

> I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files
> so that you can find them easier than typing a search term & clicking
> on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your
> current methods are "good enough" for you, but this isn't good grounds
> on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a
> state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for
> millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it).

Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
else's desktop. And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated,
slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've
stayed with Windows, thank you. I started with Blckbox and am now on
ICEWM.

I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do
with a new machine is to turn off indexing. It noticeably, speeds up
the system. I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous
disk-thrashing, thank you.

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Volker Armin Hemmann 02-11-2010 11:14 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:17:07AM +0000, Stroller wrote
>
> > I cannot for a moment believe that you (Roy) can organise your files
> > so that you can find them easier than typing a search term & clicking
> > on the correct result. You just don't want to try it because your
> > current methods are "good enough" for you, but this isn't good grounds
> > on which to complain about KDE moving on with their development of a
> > state-of-the-art desktop which will actually make life easier for
> > millions of other people (people who aren't afraid to try it).
>
> Yes, I can organize my files to the point where I rarely ever use
> find. Just because you can't, is not a reason to slow down everybody
> else's desktop. And if I really wanted a glitzy, bloated,
> slow-as-molasses, pointy-clicky-touchy-feely-oowee-GUI, I would've
> stayed with Windows, thank you. I started with Blckbox and am now on
> ICEWM.
>
> I have to put up with Windows at work and one of the first things I do
> with a new machine is to turn off indexing. It noticeably, speeds up
> the system. I'll take the rare occasional long search versus continuous
> disk-thrashing, thank you.


again. You are talking about stuff you do know nothing about. Semantic desktop
is not a MUST. You can turn it off.
Second, even if you use it the impact on performance is negligble. updatedb
running over your harddisks does a lot more damage than nepomuk - with the
additional bonus that nepomuk only indexes once.

But again, you can turn it off with a single mouse click. So what again ist
your problem? Besides that it is new?

Volker Armin Hemmann 02-11-2010 11:17 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>
> Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if
> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

it is neither fat nor bloated nor slow. Have you really tried it? Waited until
the first indexing run was complete? kppp needs more ram than nepomuk. ... and
produces a higher load.

'Bloatware' is all you have to say. Yeah. It makes life of people easier and
uses negligble ressources on hardware that was produced in the last 4 years.
It really must be bad.

Alan McKinnon 02-11-2010 11:37 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
>
> > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> >
> > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
>
> There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE. Actually I prefer the
> ICEWM window manager. I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007. Let's just say that
> GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me. On my current desktop,
> ICEWM flies. But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
> usable.
>
> > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>
> Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if
> Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.

You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are just a
stupid ass.

It is not slow.

You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is not
slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).

Are you seriously just shooting your mouth off about something you know didly-
squat about?



--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Volker Armin Hemmann 02-11-2010 11:48 AM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote
> >
> > > On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> > > > desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
> > >
> > > yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
> > > too.
> > >
> > There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE. Actually I prefer the
> >
> > ICEWM window manager. I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
> > megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007. Let's just say that
> > GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me. On my current desktop,
> > ICEWM flies. But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
> > usable.
> >
> > > Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
> > >
> > Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if
> >
> > Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
> > linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.
>
> You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
> just a stupid ass.
>
> It is not slow.
>
> You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is
> not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).

you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...

Dale 02-11-2010 01:32 PM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:


On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:


On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote



On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:


IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).


yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
too.



There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE. Actually I prefer the

ICEWM window manager. I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007. Let's just say that
GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me. On my current desktop,
ICEWM flies. But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME and KDE are not
usable.



Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.



Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if

Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.


You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you are
just a stupid ass.

It is not slow.

You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that it is
not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).


you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...




Can you nice the thing too? That would work. I set emerge to 5 and I
can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time. There may be
times when I can but it is rare.


I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog. I notice
updatedb running at night. I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
takes a few minutes. How is that a resource "hog"? My machine is not
as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
now. It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram. I have had Linux on machines
as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.


Dale

:-) :-)

Alan McKinnon 02-11-2010 01:42 PM

Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?
 
On Thursday 11 February 2010 16:32:02 Dale wrote:

> Can you nice the thing too? That would work. I set emerge to 5 and I
> can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time. There may be
> times when I can but it is rare.
>
> I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog. I notice
> updatedb running at night. I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
> takes a few minutes. How is that a resource "hog"? My machine is not
> as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
> now. It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram. I have had Linux on machines
> as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.


No need for any of that.

Walter is just being a prick, talking out of a hole in his arse with the some
total of "truth = 0"

Apologies for the French. I cannot resist. Dimwits annoy me greatly.


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com


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