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Old 02-12-2010, 12:42 AM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:43:36 +0100, Christian Apeltauer wrote:

> If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
> Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
> wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.

Clearly it is not optional, otherwise the ebuild would support the
existing semantic-desktop flag. If upstream have made this feature
compulsory, disabling it is not the Gentoo way either.


--
Neil Bothwick

Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
 
Old 02-12-2010, 01:18 AM
Dale
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:


chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:


On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Dale wrote:


chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:


On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Alan McKinnon wrote:


On Thursday 11 February 2010 13:50:54 Walter Dnes wrote:


On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 01:31:26AM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote



On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:


IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
years).


yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction
too.



There are other desktops besides GNOME and KDE. Actually I
prefer the

ICEWM window manager. I was running a 1999 Dell 450mhz PIII with 128
megs of *SYSTEM* ram until the summer of 2007. Let's just say that
GNOME and KDE were out of the question for me. On my current
desktop, ICEWM flies. But I also have a netbook, and again GNOME
and KDE are not usable.



Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be
bad.



Correction, is fat, bloated, and slow, must be bad. I wonder if

Microsoft's anti-linux strategy is to have its agents infiltrate the
linux developer community, and turn linux into bloatware.


You have been corrected on this point so many times I now think you
are just a stupid ass.

It is not slow.

You are the only one saying that. People who do use Nepomuk say that
it is not slow and does not hog resources (initial scan excepted).


you can even tell nepomuk how much memory it is allowed to use ...


Can you nice the thing too? That would work. I set emerge to 5 and I
can't even tell that emerge is running most of the time. There may be
times when I can but it is rare.

I just don't get this thing that indexing is a resource hog. I notice
updatedb running at night. I have 329Gbs of "data" and updatedb only
takes a few minutes. How is that a resource "hog"? My machine is not
as old as some but it is slow going by the new machines that are out
now. It's a AMD 2500+ with 2Gbs of ram. I have had Linux on machines
as slow as 133MHz but never felt the need to disable indexing.


when updatedb runs your cache is shot afterwards. That is a known
problems.

Nepomuk is only noticable once: the first indexing run. After that it
creates zero load.


So cache is bad? Heck, my cache is almost always full anyway. Nothing
new there. If it is not updatedb then it will be something else.


no, cahce is great. That is the problem. Updatedb replaces the cached files
with stuff you probably don't care about. Which is bad.




I don't think I have ever seen my cache change when running updatedb.
Maybe it is so small that it doesn't matter. After all, I only have
over 300GBs worth of files on the drives and 2Gbs of ram. This makes me
want to stay up tonight and test this theory. o_O


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-12-2010, 02:04 AM
walt
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote:


It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate, kmail etc.

> that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested in having the
> entire DE.

By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you to
the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous months,
but, nevermind.)

I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've
maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you
for that.

On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the latest
version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you must
necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software. How could
it possibly be otherwise?

The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be
the next M$/Google/Whoever.

Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die!
 
Old 02-12-2010, 03:19 AM
"Zeerak Waseem"
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:04:38 +0100, walt <w41ter@gmail.com> wrote:


On 02/11/2010 01:35 PM, Zeerak Waseem wrote:

It just seems silly that if you want to use the newest version of kate,
kmail etc.
> that semantic-desktop is forced upon you, when you're not interested
in having the

> entire DE.

By the authority vested in me by My-Wife-the-Windows-User, I welcome you
to
the gentoo-users mail list. (I don't recall your name from previous
months,

but, nevermind.)

I see that you've taken some heat in return for your opinions, but you've
maintained a very civil and polite tone to your replies, and I admire you
for that.



Why thank you :-)

On the other hand, may I politely suggest that, if you wish to use the
latest
version of kate (or any other software including software from M$) you
must
necessarily accept the decisions of the author of that software. How
could

it possibly be otherwise?



Well it can't be otherwise, however I do enjoy complaining, well about
certain things anyway. Personally I installed kde, and realized I had no
idea what on earth was on my computer and why, so I removed it and moved
to openbox, and don't use any kde specific apps.
But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems a
bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.



The Ultimate Solution is to develop your own software, of course, and be
the next M$/Google/Whoever.

Hey, I'm still working on it -- I'll get there, do-or-die!




I just started a degree, to accomplish -something akin to- that ;-)


--
Zeerak
 
Old 02-12-2010, 05:50 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Friday 12 February 2010 01:49:18 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> > Am Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:18:42 +0000
> >
> > schrieb Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>:
> > > On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:03:15 -0600, Roy Wright wrote:
> > > > IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find
> > > > another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7
> > > > years).
> > >
> > > It's so mandatory it takes a whole mouse click to turn it off
> >
> > If you do not want a piece of software, why should you install it?
> > Installing and not using it instead of not installing it at all, is the
> > wrong way and (to my opinion) it is defintely not the Gentoo way.
> >
> > Well, I have drawn the conclusions and got rid of kmail and am on the
> >
> > verge of migrating the whole desktop. I loved kde-3.5, I seriously
> > tried kde-4.*, but I could never befriend with it. And one point I
> > detaste is that "Social Semantic Desktop" thing (as Nepomuk is
> > characterized on its afore mentioned wikipedia page). For me it is just
> > another instance of what Kant called "selbstverschuldete
> > Unmündigkeit" (self-incurred immaturity).
>
> sure. Be able to tag and quickly find information is immature.
>
> Question, when you have KDE installed and some app pulls in gconf or gvfs -
> do you throw the same temper tamtrum?

People by and large do not comprehend what KDE-4 is all about, and the naming
convention actually reinforces this misconception. Folk think KDE-4 is the
natural evolution of KDE-3.5 - more of the same just more of it and supposedly
better.

Nothing could be further from the truth. KDE-4 is nothing like KDE-3.5 and
visual similarities are just that - superficial. kmail's appearance in 3.5 was
good and in 4 it looks the same because there is no good reason to change the
skin. Underlying that superficial layer you find something entirely new which
bears no resemblance at all the the old one, and this has been confounding
people since the first code commits.

KDE-4 is built on an array of new technologies: Plasma, Akonadi, Nepomuk,
Phonon, Solid, Strigi and more

Those things encompass what KDE-4 is built to do, they are the reason for
KDE-4's entire existence, it's raison d'etre. Without Plasma, it is just
another desktop. Without Phonon, you have to use what came before together
with it's problems.

There is a reason why latest versions of KDE do not have magic switches to
remove semantic desktop:

SEMANTIC DESKTOP IS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. IT IS THE ENTIRE REASON KDE4 EXISTS
AT ALL.

Complaining about it reveals only a deep fundamental understanding of what the
software is supposed to do, so folk should stop trying to shoehorn it into a
box that the devs deliberately built it to not fit into.

To all those folk who do not like building a semantic desktop with kmail:

You need to get over it. Seriously. There are other options.
Or try building a browser without an html rendering engine for a vivid example
of what you are attempting. Don't bother trying to justify why this is not a
valid analogy to KDE4 - it is a valid analogy and KDE really is what I
described above. It's that way because the devs who built it say so.

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-12-2010, 08:53 AM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:

> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.

That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.


--
Neil Bothwick

"Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable."
- Mark Twain
 
Old 02-12-2010, 09:15 AM
"Zeerak Waseem"
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
wrote:



On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:


But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.


That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.




Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that
aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
this the correct term?) dependencies.
Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional
dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably
Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)


In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't
mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes
bloat.


--
Zeerak
 
Old 02-12-2010, 09:30 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Friday 12 February 2010 12:15:13 Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> >
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that
> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> this the correct term?) dependencies.

Your entire argument is pointless and utterly without merit.

KDE is the way it is because that's how the devs built it. From a marketing
perspective, it is correct the way it is because the vast majority of it's
users will not understand or care about the point you are making and the DE
was built for them.

I'll give you an analogy:

A new suspension bridge has permanent copper cladding on the stay wires. You
are of the opinion that this should have been hot-pluggable and the city that
paid for the bridge should have had the choice to fit aluminium cladding after
the fact, and to be able to do so at the press of a button. You express this
opinion to the bridge architect and present vast reams of made-up marketing
fluff to support your point.

The bridge architect and his team of engineers listen to you, look at each
other and cock their eyebrows. The architect looks back at you and says:

"Tough shit. We're not changing it now."

There's a difference between what you think is the right way to proceed and
the way the devs chose. If you don't like where kmail is going, use claws



--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-12-2010, 12:01 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@digimed.co.uk>
>
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> >
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that
> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> this the correct term?) dependencies.
> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional
> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably
> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
>
> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some don't
> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus becomes
> bloat.

and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does not
force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma-
desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing
manager ....
 
Old 02-12-2010, 01:46 PM
BRM
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

----- Original Message ----

> From: Zeerak Waseem <zeerak.w@gmail.com>
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE, KMail
> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE, not
> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things that aren't
> -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is this the
> correct term?) dependencies.
> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an optional dep.
> It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all the files on
> the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I understand
> correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon probably Gnome users as
> well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they feel the need for it.
> Much like most other bits of software :-)

Obviously you don't understand the reason for the dependency.
It does not exist so that Kmail can index all the files on the system but for the opposite -
so that Kmail can participate in the search by allowing the system to be able to search _its_ data.

And, btw, you're not turning it off within Kmail, but at the system - DE - level.
The application itself will still check to see if it could participate, only to have nothing turned on to support so then it doesn't do anything.

> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint.

Question: are you a software developer?

Kmail probably has the dependency the way they do b/c it is far easier to make it one and let the system determine not to support the functionality
than it is to litter the codebase with "if (symanticDesktopEnabled)..." code.

> Some don't mind
> the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to disable the
> function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't consider it to be the
> slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's an unnecessary feature forced
> on them (mainly thinking of the people not using kde, but also those kde-users
> that just disable it) and thus becomes bloat.

No more than it is bloat for gcc to support mmx/sse/sse2/sse3/sse4 when your processor cannot.

Ben
 

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