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Old 02-10-2010, 10:52 AM
Christian Apeltauer
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

Hello list,
when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
install it. But I really like kmail as my mail client, so I give it a
last chance:
Is it possible to compile kmail without support for semantic desktop
(by writing my own ebuild) or will the code break without it?
Thanks for your hints
Christian
 
Old 02-10-2010, 01:34 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> Hello list,
> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> install it.

you don't even now what that is. Right?

You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have it
installed with soprano.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 04:44 PM
Frank Steinmetzger
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

Am Mittwoch, 10. Februar 2010 schrieb Christian Apeltauer:
> Hello list,
> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> install it.

I've had the same issue yesterday, but for another reason. I didn't want to
install yet another server backend, whose package is 70MB in size. I've
tried, but in the end, something needed semantic-desktop to be compulsory. So
I gave up and waited the half hour to download that bloody virtuoso. :-/
--
Gruß | Greetings | Qapla'
Why did the tachyon cross the road?
Because it was on the other side.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 09:51 PM
Roy Wright
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>> Hello list,
>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>> install it.
>
> you don't even now what that is. Right?
>
> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have it
> installed with soprano.
>


My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >> Hello list,
> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> >> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> >> install it.
> >
> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
> >
> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have
> > it installed with soprano.
>
> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of
> kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and
> disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.

your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.

start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)

and then proceed with the links.

google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be
replaced with find, locate and grep).
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:01 PM
Jörg Schaible
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>> >> Hello list,
>> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>> >> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>> >> install it.
>> >
>> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
>> >
>> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
>> > have it installed with soprano.
>>
>> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
>> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
>> and
>> disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
>> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
>
> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
>
> start here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
>
> and then proceed with the links.
>
> google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> be replaced with find, locate and grep).

Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many
resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So, you
mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with 4.3.x? LOL,
although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I rather have a
usable machine ...

- Jörg
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:03 PM
Roy Wright
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
>>> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
>>>> Hello list,
>>>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
>>>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
>>>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
>>>> install it.
>>>
>>> you don't even now what that is. Right?
>>>
>>> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already have
>>> it installed with soprano.
>>
>> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation of
>> kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory, and
>> disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
>> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
>
> your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
>
> start here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
>
> and then proceed with the links.
>
> google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can be
> replaced with find, locate and grep).
>

OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's relationship to an email?). Also didn't read anything even hinting at security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an attack that get's access to the RDFs, it'd tell the attacker exactly which additional files to target). And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally disabled/uninstalled.

IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:25 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Jörg Schaible wrote:
> Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >> >> Hello list,
> >> >> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >> >> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to
> >> >> not use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I
> >> >> will not install it.
> >> >
> >> > you don't even now what that is. Right?
> >> >
> >> > You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
> >> > have it installed with soprano.
> >>
> >> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
> >> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
> >> and
> >> disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as I'm
> >> perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> >
> > your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> >
> > start here:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> >
> > and then proceed with the links.
> >
> > google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> > be replaced with find, locate and grep).
>
> Well, in 4.3.x I eliminated it after the first try, because it took so many
> resources of my machine, that I could not use it for something else. So,
> you mean, in 4.4.x it takes only a 10% of the resources it took with
> 4.3.x? LOL, although I really like the idea of the semantic desktop, I
> rather have a usable machine ...
>
> - Jörg

I don't know what load it creates because I never even have any negative
impact. Yes, there is some nepomuk stuff sleeping in the background and it has
zero impact on my desktop behaviour.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:31 PM
Volker Armin Hemmann
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2010, at 5:04 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> > On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
> >> On Feb 10, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
> >>> On Mittwoch 10 Februar 2010, Christian Apeltauer wrote:
> >>>> Hello list,
> >>>> when I synced my portage tree today, I saw that kmail-4.4.0 needs
> >>>> kdelibs compiled with USE="semantic-desktop" and cannot be told to not
> >>>> use it. But I do not like the idea of semantic desktop and I will not
> >>>> install it.
> >>>
> >>> you don't even now what that is. Right?
> >>>
> >>> You just don't use 'it' and you are fine. Btw, I am sure you already
> >>> have it installed with soprano.
> >>
> >> My understanding is the semantic-desktop is just the latest incarnation
> >> of kde's clone of google desktop search which just wastes CPU, memory,
> >> and disk space. Personally I don't see the need for this technology as
> >> I'm perfectly happy waiting a few seconds on "find" every few months.
> >
> > your understanding is wrong. Completely wrong. Seriously it hurts.
> >
> > start here:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEPOMUK_(framework)
> >
> > and then proceed with the links.
> >
> > google-desktop is something completley different (and something that can
> > be replaced with find, locate and grep).
>
> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
> relationship to an email?).

because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree plus
symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of the stuff
'semantic desktop' can do for you..

> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
> attack that get's access to the RDFs,

those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you are
screwed anyway.

> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
> additional files to target).

oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is
scary.

> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally
> disabled/uninstalled.

and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing else.
Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.

>
> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).

yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.

Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 12:14 AM
Roy Wright
 
Default Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

On Feb 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> On Donnerstag 11 Februar 2010, Roy Wright wrote:
>>
>> OK, after reading several articles from the given starting point, I now
>> understand why semantic-desktop wastes so much cpu, memory, and storage
>> (really, if you organize your data properly who cares about a file's
>> relationship to an email?).
>
> because to 'organize it properly' you would need a huge directory tree plus
> symlinks plus explaining notes to even simulate a small token of the stuff
> 'semantic desktop' can do for you..

Haven't had a problem organizing my data in 25 years and currently run a 3 system cluster with ~8TB of data. The only "benefit" that the semantic desktop seems to deliver is to waste resources.

>
>> Also didn't read anything even hinting at
>> security awareness of the technology which is really scary (imagine an
>> attack that get's access to the RDFs,
>
> those RDFs are in your home directory. If someone can read your home you are
> screwed anyway.
>
>> it'd tell the attacker exactly which
>> additional files to target).
>
> oh yes, reading stuff about emails tells him to read more emails. That is
> scary.

But tagging files (say stock spreedsheets, bank records, financial bookmarks, tax records) with tags (say 'bank, money, finance') all in one place would simplify a targeted attack.

>
>> And since I don't use/like dolphin, I'll
>> stick with my original opinion that the semantic-desktop should be totally
>> disabled/uninstalled.
>
> and you can do that. Oh wow. That useflag only turns on soprano. Nothing else.
> Which means nothing. You are not forced to use that stuff.

So just another database server wasting resources. Not too bad as long as nepomuk and strigi are disabled. Now to find the network ports soprano uses to make sure they are blocked from leaving the machine... Yes, I know, one of the really scary goals of the semantic-desktop is to share RDFs, definitely don't want that.

>
>>
>> IMO, mandatory semantic-desktop is a very good reason to find another
>> desktop manager (even after being my primary desktop for 7 years).
>
> yeah good luck with that. Because gnome is moving in that direction too.
>
> Seriously guys, you start sounding like luddites. Is new, must be bad.
>


This technology does not have a good track record (invasive cpu, memory, disk usage) for very dubious benefits. I have not found any cost vs. benefits vs. risks articles. Just a bunch of "we think this will be great if you just use it" type articles that can't even explain how it would be great.
 

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