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Old 02-10-2010, 10:37 AM
Dale
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On Wednesday 10 February 2010 11:38:52 Neil Bothwick wrote:


On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 02:24:36 -0600, Dale wrote:


hal is a classic "Second System Effect" case

But I thought we thrashed this to death a while ago and all agreed to
never speak of this abomination again, while we await the Third
System Effect aka DeviceKit?



From what I read it appears to be the same guy doing both. Maybe,

just maybe, some lessons were learned and it will be a lot better.


Isn't that the point of redoing it? It's when someone else comes along
with brand new way of doing things that we get a whole load of brand new
problems?


It really is the same guy. His blog said something to the effect of:

"hal is a load of crap. I knew it long ago, the other devs knew it slightly
less longer ago and the users now know it too. We were trying to do too much
and shoehorn too many things into the same boxes that belonged in different
boxes. I'm fed up trying to maintain this steaming mess, will not be adding
new features, and wash my hands of it. I'll be doing a rewrite called
DeviceKit."

So kudos to the man for recognizing the real problem, admitting it, and moving
onto a real solution. Nothing wrong with making a mistake and fixing it -
that's how we learn.

Personally, my mistakes teach me MUCH more than my successes - I then know
what not to do :-)




That's what I am thinking. At least he knows hardware, how to write a
program and sees the big picture of how it turned out. That's why I
said I hope this new thing will be better. He sees where it got lost
and wants to make it better. Kudos for knowing it is better to start
from freaking scratch too. Think Bill Gates could ever do that? ROFL


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-10-2010, 11:57 AM
"Walter Dnes"
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 10:27:32AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote

> but D-Bus provides a standard way for applications to communicate
> with one another and removing it can stop your desktop working as
> it should.

Then how did things manage to work on my systems for the past 9 years,
pray tell?

--
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
 
Old 02-10-2010, 12:16 PM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Wednesday 10 February 2010 14:57:57 Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 10:27:32AM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote
>
> > but D-Bus provides a standard way for applications to communicate
> > with one another and removing it can stop your desktop working as
> > it should.
>
> Then how did things manage to work on my systems for the past 9 years,
> pray tell?

Because pre-dbus your desktop apps used a mish-mash of all sorts of $STUFF
that did the same thing in a spaghetti like manner. KDE had dcop but couldn't
talk directly to gnome apps and vice-versa.

post-dbus we have a coherent message bus system that is DE-agnostic and
supported by freedesktop. Apps get migrated to use dbus instead of spaghetti
and things work better.

With KDE-3.5 you couldn't just dispense with dcop and expect stuff to work.
Same with dbus currently.


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:57:57 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

> > but D-Bus provides a standard way for applications to communicate
> > with one another and removing it can stop your desktop working as
> > it should.
>
> Then how did things manage to work on my systems for the past 9 years,
> pray tell?

Because nine years ago, Linux desktop software didn't use interprocess
communication. Of course things will still work, but not necessarily
everything. For example, Network Manager uses D-Bus to tell programs when
your Internet connection is available and not, so your mail client goes
into offline mode rather than pointlessly trying to access your mailbox.
KDE4 uses it quite extensively, ust as KDE3 used DCOP.


--
Neil Bothwick

Vuja De: the feeling that you've never been here before.
 
Old 02-10-2010, 01:29 PM
Dale
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:57:57 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:



but D-Bus provides a standard way for applications to communicate
with one another and removing it can stop your desktop working as
it should.


Then how did things manage to work on my systems for the past 9 years,
pray tell?


Because nine years ago, Linux desktop software didn't use interprocess
communication. Of course things will still work, but not necessarily
everything. For example, Network Manager uses D-Bus to tell programs when
your Internet connection is available and not, so your mail client goes
into offline mode rather than pointlessly trying to access your mailbox.
KDE4 uses it quite extensively, ust as KDE3 used DCOP.




So that's why when I am downloading something it doesn't check my
emails. I was always curious about that.


Thanks.

Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-10-2010, 02:36 PM
Mike Edenfield
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On 2/10/2010 2:12 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:

On Wednesday 10 February 2010 03:29:50 Dale wrote:

Well, actually, if hal would have worked I wouldn't have cared if it
uses xorg.conf at all. That was the point of using hal. Thing is, I
followed the howto and it didn't work. The fact that the config files
are in xml only became a problem after hal locked me out of my GUI and
required a hard shutdown.



hal is a classic "Second System Effect" case

But I thought we thrashed this to death a while ago and all agreed to never
speak of this abomination again, while we await the Third System Effect aka
DeviceKit?



Last I heard DeviceKit was "deprecated before it even happened" and
they're just going to move everything into udev.


--Mike
 
Old 02-10-2010, 02:57 PM
Dale
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On 2/10/2010 2:12 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:

On Wednesday 10 February 2010 03:29:50 Dale wrote:

Well, actually, if hal would have worked I wouldn't have cared if it
uses xorg.conf at all. That was the point of using hal. Thing is, I
followed the howto and it didn't work. The fact that the config files
are in xml only became a problem after hal locked me out of my GUI and
required a hard shutdown.



hal is a classic "Second System Effect" case

But I thought we thrashed this to death a while ago and all agreed to
never
speak of this abomination again, while we await the Third System
Effect aka

DeviceKit?



Last I heard DeviceKit was "deprecated before it even happened" and
they're just going to move everything into udev.


--Mike




Well, udev does seem to work at least. lol Maybe the devicekit guy
could just slide over and help the udev people?


Heck, as long as it works, I'm fine with it. I just don't like having
to unexpectedly do a hard reboot.


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-10-2010, 03:15 PM
"J. Roeleveld"
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Tuesday 09 February 2010 23:58:10 Dale wrote:
> So, hal may be progress to you but it is a step backward for me. It's
> the opposite of progress.

You mean HAL = Congress?

Sorry, couldn't resist

And now, back on topic
 
Old 02-10-2010, 05:10 PM
Dale
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:

On Tuesday 09 February 2010 23:58:10 Dale wrote:


So, hal may be progress to you but it is a step backward for me. It's
the opposite of progress.


You mean HAL = Congress?

Sorry, couldn't resist

And now, back on topic




Well anytime the Congress does anything, it isn't progress. It never
has been. That was hard to resist tho. lol


Dale

:-) :-)
 
Old 02-10-2010, 07:47 PM
pk
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

Neil Bothwick wrote:

> Because nine years ago, Linux desktop software didn't use interprocess
> communication. Of course things will still work, but not necessarily

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-process_communication
http://tldp.org/LDP/tlk/ipc/ipc.html

D-Bus is just a YAIPC (Yet-Another-Inter-Process-Communication)...

Best regards

Peter K
 

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