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Old 02-13-2010, 06:51 AM
Graham Murray
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

"Walter Dnes" <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> writes:

> - I run Firefox
> - I go to live365.com and log in
> - I click on an icon, and Firefox starts up an audio player, and passes
> it the appropriate URL.
> - I start reading/writing emails, whilst enjoying music in my headphones
>
> The audio player needs to communicate with my email client because...?
>

So that the email program can add a 'tag' in the signature of outgoing
emails so that the recipients know what music you were listening to when
composing the email

I have not seen this in email clients, but would not be surprised if
some did, but have seen this in IM programs - both Pidgin and kopete
have options/plugins to show the music you are listening to in your
status.
 
Old 02-13-2010, 08:43 AM
pk
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:

> I would like to point out that this is 'gentoo user' not 'talk about any os'
> or 'windows support'. You might be surprised to learn that gentoo is a linux
> distribution. So why do you bring windows or apple up?

Because most of those "millions of users" you were refering to are using
windows and macos... I met a non-sensical argument with another, as I
see it. Gentoo users are hardly millions (although I don't have any
figures to back that claim up).

> the problems, dbus solves, have been discussed to death already. Maybe you
> should read Alan McKinnons mails again. You seem to have missed a lot. Neil
> Bothwick's mails are also something you should consider.

I have read them all. Again, this is just a matter of opinion; you, Alan
and Neil thinks it solves a problem which I don't see. IPC has been
working for decades before D-Bus came along it. It just adds another
layer (the D-Bus protocol) on top of, for example, unix domain sockets
(which is one variant of IPC).

For the record I do have D-Bus installed because it's a compile-time
requirement for Audacious but I don't run the daemon (Audacious works
fine without it). It just sits there taking up space... Which I find
annoying. But again this discussion is pointless since the Audacious
programmers have introduced this (compilation) dependency. So if I wish
to go back to the way it was (before D-Bus) I'd better get hacking! ;-)

So let's agree that we disagree on this matter? :-)

Best regards

Peter K
 
Old 02-13-2010, 09:12 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Friday 12 February 2010 21:38:21 pk wrote:
> Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > 1. Say stuff it and build a print server into your app. We stopped doing
> > that when DOS fell out of fashion.
> > 2. Support all possible print systems. lpr anyone?
> > 3. Or just use IPC and let dedicated print middleware deal with it.
>
> What's wrong with lpr?

Not all lot wrong with it really.

As long as you use printers from the era when lpr was written, it works just
fine.

Now go buy the kind of thing managers usually buy - some weird Chinese thing
no-one has ever heard of rebranded as an Olivetti where PCL 5 is the only
thing you realistically use to get it to print.

Use lpr with that. Let us know how that works out for you.


--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-13-2010, 09:16 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Friday 12 February 2010 22:14:53 pk wrote:
> > and because of that dbus is a great solution. Single solution for a wide
> > range of problems. Which is pretty much anti-bloat.
>
> Great solution to what? What problems?

As has been mentioned multiple times before by multiple people:

The problem it solves is consistent communication between different
applications, removing the need to have that functionality repeated many times
by every app that would like to communicate state to another app.

Yes, it is a generic bus designed to deal with generic data in a (mostly)
transparent way.

Yes, if you use dbus for one or two functions only, then you have more
functionality than you need.

However. ELF is analogous (with the exception that you don't have one or two
binary apps), and nothing is stopping you from building everything statically,
or still using .a

Do you use ELF? And if so, why? If dbus gives similar benefits in a different
area, why are you complaining?

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-13-2010, 09:17 AM
pk
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

Neil Bothwick wrote:

> Note that they are inventing a new protocol, not a new idea.

Which is basically (if you read between the lines) what I've been trying
to say the whole time. Although it may be my english is no sufficient to
let that "shine" through... (English is not my native language).

> The same as they always talked about, but now they have a common protocol
> that can work with everything. D-Bus is not so much a new concept but a
> logical rationalisation of previous, disparate implementations.

Yes, but... As I see it this is mainly a convenience to the programmer
and no benefits to the users. Which, if I extrapolate, leads to todays
"nice" GUIs/DEs that can sing and dance and includes the proverbial
"kitchen sink".
I use gentoo in order to decide for myself what I need and don't need,
in order to maximise my benefit from a linux installation; that means I
need to weigh the benefit of a certain function/app against the hardware
requirements. If I add another thing that runs in the background
(daemon) it does steal resources (however small) and it has to have some
benefit to me in order for me to think it worth it.

Need I say that I'm a minimalist? :-)

Thanks anyway for the rational, down-to-earth, answer instead of a rant.

Best regards

Peter K
 
Old 02-13-2010, 09:22 AM
Alan McKinnon
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Saturday 13 February 2010 08:39:53 Walter Dnes wrote:
> Sorry about the delay replying. I'm having major problems upgrading
> to kernel 2.6.31-r6.
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 04:53:08PM +0000, Neil Bothwick wrote
>
> > On Thu, 11 Feb 2010 02:31:21 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:
> > > XMMS followed
> > > the original Unix philosophy... it did one thing did it right, namely
> > > playing audio.
> >
> > Yes, and if you have a number of programs, each doing one job only,
> > they need to be able to communicate in order to do the larger
> > job. Imagine a building site where the bricklayers, plasterers,
> > electricians an plumbers didn't talk to each other or the project
> > manager.
>
> - I run Firefox
> - I go to live365.com and log in
> - I click on an icon, and Firefox starts up an audio player, and passes
> it the appropriate URL.
> - I start reading/writing emails, whilst enjoying music in my headphones
>
> The audio player needs to communicate with my email client because...?

It doesn't. But your example is stupid.

Apps need to talk to apps. Not all apps need to talk to all other apps. You
gave a case where this is so, and somehow this proves your point.

It does not, and I shall show you why, with real life people:

People need to communicate with people. Without it, they accomplish very
little. For this to work, there needs to be a minimum of limits on what
happens. Now, there's someone in the basement at my work that refuels the
generators. I COULD communicate to him if I needed to but that's unlikely.

I am the audio player, he is the mailer.

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
 
Old 02-13-2010, 09:47 AM
Willie Wong
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:17:01AM +0100, pk wrote:
> Yes, but... As I see it this is mainly a convenience to the programmer
> and no benefits to the users. Which, if I extrapolate, leads to todays
> "nice" GUIs/DEs that can sing and dance and includes the proverbial
> "kitchen sink".
> I use gentoo in order to decide for myself what I need and don't need,
> in order to maximise my benefit from a linux installation; that means I
> need to weigh the benefit of a certain function/app against the hardware
> requirements. If I add another thing that runs in the background
> (daemon) it does steal resources (however small) and it has to have some
> benefit to me in order for me to think it worth it.

Neil, Peter, Alan: Can we end this thread please? There's gotta be a
threefold repetition rule a la chess for mailing lists. It was fun when
each of you were giving your understanding (or lack of) on what dbus
is and how it works. But when it degenerates to a cycle of "finding
more examples to illustrate earlier point" and "telling other party to
read previous posts", you are really just generating phantom traffic
for the list.

So why don't y'all just take a deep breath, step away from the
computer, go and get some Chinese food (the New Year is tomorrow), and
try to remember to send flowers to your loved ones? I'm sure grumpy
somebodies are less fun to deal with than invisible grumpy geeks.

Cheers,

W
--
Willie W. Wong wwong@math.princeton.edu
Data aequatione quotcunque fluentes quantitae involvente fluxiones invenire
et vice versa ~~~ I. Newton
 
Old 02-13-2010, 07:49 PM
Neil Bothwick
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

On Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:39:53 -0500, Walter Dnes wrote:

> The audio player needs to communicate with my email client because...?

This is a relevant and meaningful example because...?


--
Neil Bothwick

Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.
 
Old 02-14-2010, 01:27 PM
Enrico Weigelt
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

Neil Bothwick wrote:

> For example, Network Manager uses D-Bus to tell programs when
> your Internet connection is available and not, so your mail
> client goes into offline mode rather than pointlessly
> trying to access your mailbox.

Why should an MUA care about some local interface at all ?
It doesnt say anything whether the server can be reached, it's
nothing more than guessing, that *might* be fine for trivial
setups but can cause big headache in more complex ones.

For example:

* LAN is up, but remote server is or LAN's uplink down,
MUA wont learn about it this way
* local mailserver is falsely considered unreachable just
because the LAN interface went down

There's no way around it: the MUA (or a local proxy) must
always check on itself whether a _particular_ remote server
is reachable and properly handling that.


And *IF* some application is interested in the such information,
why not just using the filesystem ?


cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Old 02-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Enrico Weigelt
 
Default How the HAL are you supposed to use these files?

Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Example: You have any old arbitrary email client. A mail contains a URL. Click
> it. The URL should open in your preferred browser, whatever that should be.
> Please note that any email client should support launching any browser,
> whether the dev built in support for it or not.

Simply put a simple script in a defined, stardized location.
Or use plan9's plumber.

> Example: Notifications. I have 3 (yes, three!!) kinds of popups that show up
> here daily. There's KDE's system which is the majority of them, some GTK apps
> throw popups in the top right corner where I don't want them and them then
> there's Skype which does it's own thing. God, you gotta love proprietary
> sekrit apps </sarcasm>. The solution is a notification service, apps send
> their notifications to it and the service does whatever the user configured it
> to do with the notification.

man 1 plumb

> Just to bring this back to your original statement of Unix philosophy. IPC on
> modern desktops conforms exactly to the Unix philosophy.

On dbus, everything's a file ?



cu
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 

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