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-   -   Time to move on? (http://www.linux-archive.org/gentoo-user/267694-time-move.html)

Dale 03-22-2009 02:00 AM

Time to move on?
 
Mike Kazantsev wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:17:53 -0600
> Mike Diehl <mdiehl@diehlnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Has Gentoo become such a moving target that it's no longer suitable for
>> normal, every day, usage?
>>
>
> If you're prepared to update you system at least once a week and
> have up-to-date knowledge of all the installed stuff, so you can at
> least make a decision whether you need some functionality or not...
> Then yep, I'd suggest gentoo.
>
> If you don't care about either then I don't understand why you started
> using it in first place - red hat or debian-based distro would've been
> much easier and simplier.
>
>

I don't know if this is still the case or not but Mandrake updates
seemed like a reinstall on top of itself to me. Sort of like when you
reinstall windoze. It doesn't delete anything, user wise anyway, but
just puts all the new stuff in there.

You don't get the latest updates with Mandrake like Gentoo does but that
doesn't appear to be to important to you since you don't update very
often anyway. I suspect some other distro may better suite your needs.
I been using Gentoo for years and update at least weekly and I rarely
have trouble. However, if you let the updates pile up, you can have
issues that are difficult to deal with.

Overall, I agree with Mike here. Update regularly or use some other
distro as he mentioned.

Dale

:-) :-)

Mike Diehl 03-22-2009 04:50 AM

Time to move on?
 
On Saturday 21 March 2009 21:00:11 Dale wrote:

> Mike Kazantsev wrote:

> > On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:17:53 -0600

> >

> > Mike Diehl <mdiehl@diehlnet.com> wrote:

> >> Has Gentoo become such a moving target that it's no longer suitable for

> >> normal, every day, usage?

> >

> > If you're prepared to update you system at least once a week and

> > have up-to-date knowledge of all the installed stuff, so you can at

> > least make a decision whether you need some functionality or not...

> > Then yep, I'd suggest gentoo.

> >

> > If you don't care about either then I don't understand why you started

> > using it in first place - red hat or debian-based distro would've been

> > much easier and simplier.

>

> I don't know if this is still the case or not but Mandrake updates

> seemed like a reinstall on top of itself to me. Sort of like when you

> reinstall windoze. It doesn't delete anything, user wise anyway, but

> just puts all the new stuff in there.

>

> You don't get the latest updates with Mandrake like Gentoo does but that

> doesn't appear to be to important to you since you don't update very

> often anyway. I suspect some other distro may better suite your needs.

> I been using Gentoo for years and update at least weekly and I rarely

> have trouble. However, if you let the updates pile up, you can have

> issues that are difficult to deal with.

>

> Overall, I agree with Mike here. Update regularly or use some other

> distro as he mentioned.

>

> Dale

>

> :-) :-)



Ok, when I started using Gentoo, I remember a discussion about how often to do an emege world and the prevailing wisdom at the time was to do it when you needed a new feature, or fix. If the new wisdom is to update, say, weekly, I can live with that on the local machines here at the home/office. I'm a bit concerned about the servers I have co-located out of state, though. On the other hand, those are production machines and probably don't need to be upgraded many times during their lifetime.



I've run several other distributions over the years and up until recently I've never looked back from Gentoo.



I ran Slackware back when it came on 3.5" floppies. Of course it had NO package manager, so when Redhat hit the scene, I converted.



Redhat, back then was built for a generic 486, so when Mandrake came along with pentium optimizations, I converted.



But like you said, upgrading Redhat/Mandrake always seemed a bit windoze'ish to me. You really were simply piling the upgrade on top of the old system, like you said earlier.



I used Suse on a project at work and hated every minute of it, and the help forums were mostly flamefests. Never even considered Suse for "real" work.



Like I said, I've been using Gentoo for years now. When I met Daniel Robbins, I'd already been using Gentoo for several months. Gentoo is still the most customizable and optimize-able distribution available. Sometimes it's down right elegant. http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10106



However, lately, Gentoo seems to have been plagued with problems. Circular blockers. 32/64 bit libraries. Package re-organization. Others.



So here is the question: Are these just growing pains, or is this the trend with Gentoo? If I resolve to update frequently, will these problems become more rare?



I'll start a new thread to seek help with my MythTV upgrade problem.



Thanks for listening.



Mike.

Dale 03-22-2009 05:31 AM

Time to move on?
 
Mike Diehl wrote:
>
> On Saturday 21 March 2009 21:00:11 Dale wrote:
>
> > Mike Kazantsev wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 19:17:53 -0600
>
> > >
>
> > > Mike Diehl <mdiehl@diehlnet.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Has Gentoo become such a moving target that it's no longer
> suitable for
>
> > >> normal, every day, usage?
>
> > >
>
> > > If you're prepared to update you system at least once a week and
>
> > > have up-to-date knowledge of all the installed stuff, so you can at
>
> > > least make a decision whether you need some functionality or not...
>
> > > Then yep, I'd suggest gentoo.
>
> > >
>
> > > If you don't care about either then I don't understand why you started
>
> > > using it in first place - red hat or debian-based distro would've been
>
> > > much easier and simplier.
>
> >
>
> > I don't know if this is still the case or not but Mandrake updates
>
> > seemed like a reinstall on top of itself to me. Sort of like when you
>
> > reinstall windoze. It doesn't delete anything, user wise anyway, but
>
> > just puts all the new stuff in there.
>
> >
>
> > You don't get the latest updates with Mandrake like Gentoo does but that
>
> > doesn't appear to be to important to you since you don't update very
>
> > often anyway. I suspect some other distro may better suite your needs.
>
> > I been using Gentoo for years and update at least weekly and I rarely
>
> > have trouble. However, if you let the updates pile up, you can have
>
> > issues that are difficult to deal with.
>
> >
>
> > Overall, I agree with Mike here. Update regularly or use some other
>
> > distro as he mentioned.
>
> >
>
> > Dale
>
> >
>
> > :-) :-)
>
> Ok, when I started using Gentoo, I remember a discussion about how
> often to do an emege world and the prevailing wisdom at the time was
> to do it when you needed a new feature, or fix. If the new wisdom is
> to update, say, weekly, I can live with that on the local machines
> here at the home/office. I'm a bit concerned about the servers I have
> co-located out of state, though. On the other hand, those are
> production machines and probably don't need to be upgraded many times
> during their lifetime.
>
> I've run several other distributions over the years and up until
> recently I've never looked back from Gentoo.
>
> I ran Slackware back when it came on 3.5" floppies. Of course it had
> NO package manager, so when Redhat hit the scene, I converted.
>
> Redhat, back then was built for a generic 486, so when Mandrake came
> along with pentium optimizations, I converted.
>
> But like you said, upgrading Redhat/Mandrake always seemed a bit
> windoze'ish to me. You really were simply piling the upgrade on top of
> the old system, like you said earlier.
>
> I used Suse on a project at work and hated every minute of it, and the
> help forums were mostly flamefests. Never even considered Suse for
> "real" work.
>
> Like I said, I've been using Gentoo for years now. When I met Daniel
> Robbins, I'd already been using Gentoo for several months. Gentoo is
> still the most customizable and optimize-able distribution available.
> Sometimes it's down right elegant.
> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10106
>
> However, lately, Gentoo seems to have been plagued with problems.
> Circular blockers. 32/64 bit libraries. Package re-organization. Others.
>
> So here is the question: Are these just growing pains, or is this the
> trend with Gentoo? If I resolve to update frequently, will these
> problems become more rare?
>
> I'll start a new thread to seek help with my MythTV upgrade problem.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Mike.
>

This is my opinion and I am not a dev by any means. I think Gentoo is
having some growing pains. I also think it is making huge leaps right
now and they are really making some serious improvements. The newer
portage will handle most blocks without you doing anything. There may
be some exceptions to that but I would say the vast majority of blocks
will be dealt with automagically. They seam to have came up with a way
for portage to handle those blocks that is pretty seamless. That said,
reading the elog or the messages after a emerge could be more critical.
I read where someone may have missed a message and rebooted only to find
that something was screwy and would no longer boot. I'm not sure they
were running stable but either way these things can crop up. From what
they posted, they had to boot with the CD and fix it. I sort of like
that part about Gentoo. So, while portage may handle a lot for you, you
need to run etc-update or whatever you use to update configs after each
update or before you reboot at least.

I run a single desktop machine here that runs folding and is my surfing
machine. I could probably go a couple weeks between updates perhaps
even a month and be OK. I think one to two weeks just seems to be a
sweet spot for me at least. Long enough that you are not constantly
updating but often enough that you are up to date. That would be
especially true with regards to Mandrake, or whatever it is called now,
and some others that take a while to update. They may be doing more
testing or something but takes longer still.

A lot of this is based on what you are doing and the time you have to
spend on it. Some people from what I have read manage lots of servers
and I assume they are running Gentoo on them. Some things may take
longer to upgrade so you may want to wait a little longer. There could
also be a bug that you need fixed before you upgrade. Gentoo usually
has a easy option for this while some other distros may not. You can
always unmask a package if it is a bug fix and is known to work. Some
other distros may not have it available for a while until some internal
testing is done.

If it were me, I would try updating every couple weeks for a bit and see
how that works. You may still run into a issue on occasion but as long
as there are a lot of others running into the same thing, then it is not
your upgrade timing but just a serious change upstream. If you rarely
run into trouble then maybe you can go longer between upgrades or if you
still have issues then do them a little more often. I would suspect
that you would find that sweet spot somewhere close to a couple weeks to
as much as a month. I do think this will make things a lot easier.
Keep in mind, the devs upgrade their rigs a LOT. I doubt they ever have
to update a machine that has not been updated for several months so it
would be very difficult for them to test updating from say a 2006
profile. I doubt they even have a machine running that outdated. Well,
x86 anyway. There may be some running some old hardware that out of date.

A little long winded but I hope that helps and I'm sure some other gurus
will chime in as well.

Dale

:-) :-)

Philip Webb 03-22-2009 05:58 AM

Time to move on?
 
090321 Mike Diehl wrote:
> Ok now, I'm getting fed up with all of the breakage
> that I've seen in Gentoo in the last few months.

I haven't experienced any such thing.

> I'm trying to upgrade MythTV.

I don't use that, so can't help directly.

> Emerge told me to upgrade my profile, which I did.

I have (for a 64-bit system with an Intel Core 2 Duo processor) :

make.profile -> ..//usr/portage/profiles/default/linux/amd64/2008.0

> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.

I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world',
then decide which packages to update & emerge them individually.
I also have a list of all the pkgs I have installed with dates + deps,
which I keep upto-date by hand as I emerge items.
I've never understood why 'emerge world' is considered standard:
repeatedly, there are appeals for help here resulting from its shortcomings
(was it copied from Free BSD when Gentoo was originally created ? ).

> But before I could do that, I had to upgrade portage, with made sense.
> When I go to emerge -u portage, I'm told:
> sys-apps/mktemp (is blocking sys-apps/coreutils-7.1)

My hand-made list of pkgs tells me that I removed Mktemp 080419
& that it had been required for Debianutils,
of which my current version is 2.28.5 installed 090314 .
Others had problems with this block, perhaps 1 year ago,
so if you really are that far behind in updating,
you should search the list archive to see what the advice was back then:
IIRC a new version of Debianutils incorporated the Mktemp stuff,
so they became incompatible.

> So I do 'emerge -C mktemp' & got a whole page of error messages.
> The most basic msgs indicates the system can't load libselinux.so.1.

Do you have an item in 'make.conf' which requires that somewhere ?
Have you run Revdep-rebuild (pretend), to see what needs updating ?
'slocate' finds no similar file on my system.

> All I want to do is upgrade a machine that I built a few months ago.

"A few months" can be a long time in the Gentoo world (smile).
For a desktop machine, you should do a full update >= once/month :
I do it as a matter of routine every Saturday ('eix-sync' + follow-up).

As others have advised, Gentoo is not for people
who want to install & forget: for that, try Mandriva, a respectable distro.

Anyway, I've offered a few hints above: try them & ask again here.

--
========================,,======================== ====================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Francesco Talamona 03-22-2009 06:01 AM

Time to move on?
 
On Sunday 22 March 2009, Mike Diehl wrote:
> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>
> But before I could do that, I had to upgrade portage, with made
> sense.
>
> When I go to emerge -u portage, I'm told:
>
> sys-apps/mktemp (is blocking sys-apps/coreutils-7.1)
>
> So I do:
> emerge -C mktemp
>
> Now I've gotten a whole page of error messages. *The most basic of
> error messages indicates that the system can't load libselinux.so.1.
>
> I'm not using SElinux!!!! *Nor do I want to.

I've read the other threads; are you still interested in finding the
solution to this showstopper ?

My guess is that the system was already unstable, maybe awaiting for a
revdep-rebuild. Are you completely blocked or it's possible to fix at
last the basic elements?

Ciao
Francesco

--
Linux Version 2.6.28-gentoo-r3, Compiled #1 SMP PREEMPT Sun Mar 8
12:38:59 CET 2009
Two 1GHz AMD Athlon 64 Processors, 4GB RAM, 4018.04 Bogomips Total
aemaeth

Neil Bothwick 03-22-2009 07:26 AM

Time to move on?
 
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:58:57 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:

> > Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>
> I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world',
> then decide which packages to update & emerge them individually.

I hope you use --oneshot every time or your world file will be a complete
mess by now :(

> I also have a list of all the pkgs I have installed with dates + deps,
> which I keep upto-date by hand as I emerge items.
> I've never understood why 'emerge world' is considered standard:
> repeatedly, there are appeals for help here resulting from its
> shortcomings

One or two problems a week against the thousands of people running it each
day does not indicate a problem. I'd say that avoiding blockers etc by
selectively skipping upgrades is more likely to lead to problems later.


--
Neil Bothwick

Windows 98, the most installed system in the world, I know, I've done it
5 or 6 times myself.

Alan McKinnon 03-22-2009 07:27 AM

Time to move on?
 
On Sunday 22 March 2009 07:50:04 Mike Diehl wrote:
> So here is the question: Are these just growing pains, or is this the
> trend with Gentoo? If I resolve to update frequently, will these problems
> become more rare?

I've been using Gentoo for 4 years now, my main desktop is still running code
that I compiled on the first install in 2005. And I'm on my third Gentoo
notebook in a row. Absurb update issues simply don't happen, as long as you
follow the rules:

Update weekly on <~arch>
Update monthly on <arch>
Adjust to suit your needs.

You ran into the mktemp issue, which feels about a year old from this corner,
so Iguess you have not been updating regularly. I'm not sure where you got the
advice to update only when you need a new feature or a fix, but it is not
workable in practice.

Gentoo does have issues, but the majority of them are with changes to
packages, not changes to Gentoo. Remember that with Gentoo you are rebuilding
a live system on the actual system itself. We don't have build farms that
rebuild the entire distro and push out new rpms nightly - so the problems that
can hit Gentoo don't happen to binary distro users.

Take expat. It got an upgrade a long time ago which coudl break Gnome entirely
if you didn't do it right. There was nothing the devs could do really, because
that's how those packages were written. The normal case is to have a bare
machine, build expat, then build Gnome. On Gentoo, you want to do all of this
while using the Gnome that needs to be rebuilt. If you update regularly,
you'll find lots of people around who know what the steps are and can help.
Today, most of us have forgotten and need to turn to Google to find the
howtos.

If you find this happens more and more often with gentoo, it is probably a
symptom of more and more useful packages out there, that are being developed
faster with more features. See it as a sign of success on the part of FLOSS
rather than a failing of Gentoo.

And I would advise AGAINST gentoo on your out-of-state servers. They need too
much pampering to keep them stable. I have about 100 machines at work, a
mixture of 30% FreeBSD, SuSE <ugh>, some Centos and even a single lone Solaris
machine. The worst of the lot has to be the SVN server, running Gentoo. No-one
will touch it anymore, and the last time I did, I broke it horribly with a
conflict between portage and cpan Perl modules.

--
alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com

Neil Bothwick 03-22-2009 07:34 AM

Time to move on?
 
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 23:50:04 -0600, Mike Diehl wrote:

> However, lately, Gentoo seems to have been plagued with problems.
> Circular blockers. 32/64 bit libraries. Package re-organization.
> Others.

That's inevitable with a versionless distro like Gentoo. With the other
distros you have mentions, when the relationship between two packages
changes, you don't notice because you only make the switch with what is
effectively a re-install. With Gentoo,it is possible to try to upgrade
one of the packages without the other, hence the need for blockers.

> So here is the question: Are these just growing pains, or is this the
> trend with Gentoo? If I resolve to update frequently, will these
> problems become more rare?

It is a reducing trend, as portage gets better at resolving things
automatically. The current method of resolving blockers has greatly
reduced the time spent on them compared with a year ago. Frequent updates
are a definite advantage, because when such issues do occur, they happen
one at a time, making resolution much easier (like the mktemp
which only needed a quick emerge -C then carry on). When you save
up several months' worth of minor issues and let them all hit at once, it
becomes more of a hassle to sort out.

You should also run emerge --sync followed by glsa-check at least once a
week to make sure you don't miss out on important security fixes. Another
reason to keep up to date.


--
Neil Bothwick

"Bother," said Pooh, as he drained the vodka bottle dry.

KH 03-22-2009 08:13 AM

Time to move on?
 
Hi,
you also have the chance of running emerge -DuavN system. That way you
can be sure that your system is stable without updating every program
you might only need once in a blue moon or you are allready seticfied with.
I would allways have an eye on the GLSA. You can do this in the forum,
with rss or use something like glsa-check -t all

kh

Philip Webb 03-22-2009 10:37 AM

Time to move on?
 
090322 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 02:58:57 -0400, Philip Webb wrote:
>>> Now I'm doing an emerge -u world.
>> I never do that: I always do 'emerge -Dup world',
>> then decide which packages to update & emerge them individually.
> I hope you use --oneshot every time
> or your world file will be a complete mess by now :(

Yes, there's always someone who says that (grin).
Of course, it's 2nd nature to check for 'W' or 'S' in my list
& if the pkg has neither, make sure to 'emerge -1 <pkgname>'.
Anyway, isn't 'world' going to vanish with the new '@' sets ?

>> I also have a list of all the pkgs I have installed with dates + deps,
>> which I keep upto-date by hand as I emerge items.
>> I've never understood why 'emerge world' is considered standard:
>> repeatedly, there are appeals for help resulting from its shortcomings.
> One or two problems a week against the thousands of people running it
> each day does not indicate a problem. I'd say that avoiding blockers etc
> by selectively skipping upgrades is more likely to lead to problems later.

No, people run 'emerge world' in the background, miss the messages
& then run into nasty trouble for omitting RR or 'etc-update'.
That's the spirit of Ubuntu & the rest, not the hands-on Gentoo approach.

--
========================,,======================== ====================
SUPPORT ___________//___, Philip Webb
ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT `-O----------O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca


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